**LIZ:** Welcome to The Visual Marketing Podcast brought to you by C i Marketing, where we explore how to show up consistently, be more visible and connect with the right people through your marketing. I'm your host, Liz.

Welcome to another episode. Today I am really excited to introduce you to Vera, who's been on our team here at C i Marketing for six years. She is our graphic designer and she is going to be talking all things design today. So stay tuned and listen to the whole episode — there are some really good bits in this one.

Vera, welcome to your very first episode of The Visual Marketing Podcast. It is so cool to have you on here.

**VERA:** Thank you. Thanks for having me.

**LIZ:** Of course. And just like Emily on our last episode, I'm sure it will be one of many to come in the future. I would love for you to introduce yourself — just tell people who you are, how long you've been here at C i Marketing and what you do.

**VERA:** Gosh, how long? Sure. So, well, first of all, obviously, the second I opened my mouth, everyone was probably like, that's an accent. So yes, I am from Austria and I'm trying really hard to speak slowly, but it might sound weird — first podcast ever — so we'll see how that goes. My bad if you don't understand me, but just let me know.

**LIZ:** There'll be captions, there'll be a script, a transcript — people can read the text if they need to.

**VERA:** Sounds good.

So I started at C i Marketing close to six years ago now. Time really does fly. It feels forever, but also not long at all. As a graphic designer slash marketer. Actually, I could just talk a little bit about my background, I guess.

So when I was in school, I thought about marketing, but I was like, the ethical side of things — hmm, it's a little bit... it's a lot. I wasn't quite sure if I was really wanting to go into that. And that kind of stopped me for a while, but I was always into art and photography and things.

So there's this photography school that just opened up in Berlin and it sounded really cool. And I do like photography — let's just apply. I didn't apply to any other photography school, it was just that one, and it was like a long shot. But they took me and that's how it all started. So I moved to Berlin, did that. I love the visual side of it a lot.

And well, as you would know, I'm not the most decisive person ever.

**LIZ:** I never would have guessed that. Lots of strengths, but that's not one of them.

**VERA:** I think we like to call that a skill set that you're working on.

**LIZ:** Yes. We all have those and it's OK because we're human.

**VERA:** And this is why I have awesome colleagues who are way more decisive and can make the decision for me. No, but that was actually part of the reason — just taking a thousand photos at a wedding and then having to choose them all just killed me slowly. Like I just couldn't — I wanted them all. Anyway, so there was that. But I still love the editing side of things. So the details and just like working on one picture rather than like 15 or 1000.

And so that stuck with me and I then decided after my bachelor that I wanted to do a master's in green marketing. There was a fairly new master's program in Austria — it was about how to do ethical, eco marketing, all those sorts of things. And that felt a lot more comfortable ethically. So I was like, OK, still marketing. So long, long circle — or like a long side track.

**LIZ:** I love your versions of metaphors that you're trying to convert to English from German. What was it the other day? Oh — "fourth and back"?

**VERA:** Yeah. Instead of "back and forth." To be fair, it always goes backwards when you want to say that it never goes forwards.

**LIZ:** You have the best sayings and I love them all. And the thing is, yours actually make more sense than what English actually is. I think you should rewrite the metaphoric dictionary, if there's such a thing.

**VERA:** Well, the first one's going to be "to pluck a chicken" — like we discussed the other day.

**LIZ:** Yeah. Remind me how that one came about.

**VERA:** Well, it's really just if you have a bone to pick with someone. And I guess it doesn't matter if you pick a bone — to pluck a chicken — this is you have a problem with an animal.

**LIZ:** We have a bit of a theme going on with our podcast episodes where people in the hot seat are actually making up sayings. Emily made up one in the last one, and I think you've just made up a new one. So guys, if you are listening — you've heard it here first: "to pluck a chicken" by Vera.

That might be the new social post that goes out afterwards.

**VERA:** I think it might be.

**LIZ:** Anyway, we digress. So you did the master's, then what?

**VERA:** When travelling again, met my partner, moved to New Zealand and found you — in short. And didn't leave.

**LIZ:** I have locked all the doors. She cannot leave.

**VERA:** Yeah, I love that. I mean, I just — the variety is awesome. So doing graphic design, but at the same time the marketing side of things. I'm honestly not saying that to brag, but I just think having a marketing background really helps with design, because if you design something, anyone can make something pretty. But it does need some meaning and some strategy behind it. Otherwise it just lacks conviction — is that the word?

**LIZ:** It is the word. Well done. And it just needs to mean something. That needs to come from strategy and a well-researched background. And having that plus making it pretty — which is a very fun job — it's just more fun as well because there's brain involved. It's not just pixels you move from one side to the other.

Yeah, I think you're a little bit like me. I'm pretty sure my brain is 50/50 — 50 percent logical and 50 percent creative. I think you're very much like me in that regard.

**VERA:** Yes, that's probably quite accurate.

**LIZ:** I just want to quickly circle back to your education because I don't think you actually mentioned that you studied graphic design anywhere.

**VERA:** Yeah, that is true. That was part of my master's — it was sort of like an extra credit, I guess, that's what it would be in New Zealand. But then I had a few jobs before coming here where I learned a lot on the job.

**LIZ:** Walk me through a typical day of being a graphic designer.

**VERA:** A lot of coffee.

**LIZ:** I think that's the same for everybody in marketing, no matter what your job.

**VERA:** A typical day. Well, the beauty of it is there is no typical day — every day literally changes. And I think I would get really bored if it wasn't the case. But I do have a process, I guess, even though it's not something written down that I follow step by step every time. But it does come through. You talk to the client first. You talk about the strategy, the business model. You have a creative brief. It's quite fun to see how it evolves.

First, it's all you — you start as the designer, you get all the input and you put it all on paper. You have all these ideas. This is where the indecisiveness comes back in, because I have a thousand ideas and I want to put them all on paper. I do have to put a stop on that eventually. But it just kind of flows. You drive to work and you stand in the shower and you have another idea, or you see something on a number plate and you're like, oh my God, this letter could work with this combination of — I don't know, just something.

You show those first drafts to the client. They give you feedback and you start working on it. And suddenly you create something that's different but actually better than before, because it's them and it should be them. It's not about you.

**LIZ:** I love that. How do you handle it when a client comes to you with some ideas? Like obviously we have a process we run through with them — all the questions we ask are specific questions that are going to help you in the process. What happens when they come to you with an idea that you know is just absolutely not going to work for them?

**VERA:** More coffee. And then I... well, I do tend to make the one up that they're wanting. And often they see it and they're like, yeah, OK, maybe it's not the very best idea — especially when in comparison you have a few other sketches that look a little better. So I would definitely provide them with more options.

But in the end, if the client is set on something they really wanted — well, yes, I have to go with that. It's not my logo, as much as I want them all to be mine. It's always going to be a combination of tastes and perspectives.

**LIZ:** And you've got that marketing background as well, so you can actually back it up with research and experience and say, hey, this is why it's not going to work, or what would serve them better.

**VERA:** I mean, if it's detrimental or if it's really going to hurt them from a marketing perspective, yes, I would definitely speak up. Like the McDonald's logo would have worked differently if it was blue, you know? If it's a dentist and you have a yucky vomity green or a dirty yellow — probably not the best choice for clean white teeth. But I think you can bring that across.

**LIZ:** You mentioned that you have your own taste in your personal life. Do you have a vibe or an aesthetic that really appeals to you?

**VERA:** It does change. I mean, obviously trends change and we're all not immune to trends. I'm trying to not follow them as much as I can, but it's human nature to be influenced. And I do like a bit of boho, or just light and airy, lots of sunlight.

**LIZ:** You've done renovations on your own house. Did you go with a particular style across the whole house or did you go room by room?

**VERA:** I definitely did outside to inside — everything kind of had to be connected. So like the outside has a bit of a dark green in it, so I wanted to have that in the kitchen tiles and some wall colour accents as well. But the rest is like creamy and white and woody, wooden floors — and yes, only took three years.

But it actually helped me in the design process as well. Funnily enough, there was definitely a connection, because if you enjoy being creative, it doesn't really matter where you end up as long as it has to do with creativity. Like you can have fun with lots of different fields.

But funnily enough with graphic design, there are already quite a few different fields. Like, you can say you're a designer, but it's a bit like a doctor or a construction worker — there's so many niches within that as well.

**LIZ:** So what's your favourite area?

**VERA:** I do love a good layout, like a website layout, or applying the brand — that's probably where the most fun comes in because you have some rules, like a clear set of instructions, but then you get to work with them.

It's like we have this discussion a lot in the office, right? Because we all like baking and cooking. And as you know, I can't follow a recipe for the life of me.

**LIZ:** I am well aware of this, yes.

**VERA:** So I start with the instructions and the layout, the rules that need to be there. And then I get creative.

**LIZ:** I particularly remember a moment with the golf-ball-sized cookies. I said make the cookies golf-ball sized, and then you came to me and said, oh, is this a little bit too big? And it was like baseball size.

**VERA:** And I'm like, yeah, go like half or a third.

**LIZ:** And you're like, really?

**VERA:** Yeah, they were delicious anyway. And we made them a bit smaller. But yes, it's a similar approach, I guess.

But the funny thing about this is I think the best applied brands are the ones that are actually to the point that it gets boring. Like where you don't have a lot of creativity anymore. The big brands — they have brand style guides, brand guidelines, a thousand different names for it — but a booklet that talks about the rules and instructions of how your brand should be used. So when it's first created, it's the logo, sizing, spacing, colours, the font, all that. And it is like a manual. And once that is done, you can't just go change it all up, because then you don't have brand recognition anymore.

Like the chocolate chip cookies — if you want them to be recognizable as chocolate chip cookies, they should have chocolate in them and probably be the size of a cookie, roughly. It could be a bit bigger. But maybe not a cake. Otherwise it's not a cookie. So you see what I'm getting at.

**LIZ:** What I'm hearing is — I mean, even going back to that first question about a typical day of a graphic designer — I don't think people actually realise how much is going on in that brain of yours. Like, man, that's a lot going on.

I'm really interested in your thoughts on brand guidelines. You mentioned large organisations usually have a big booklet. What are your thoughts about the importance of brand guidelines for smaller businesses, especially people who are just starting out?

**VERA:** I do think they're actually important for everyone. I understand that if you're an owner-operated business and you just started, it's just you in the marketing — you do the socials, you do the actual work, whatever it is. And now you just have to make it work and budget is tight. I totally understand that.

But the second you grow a little bit — and that is what the hope is, the goal is — you do want to set yourself up for success, which means you might have a second person, a third person, or the 15th person in a few years. And the second you have someone else working with your brand, with your designs, it will look different. It is actually hilarious how you can tell.

Even the two of us — with the brand guidelines, I can guarantee you will make two different things. And that's not because you're not a graphic designer, but it's because, let's face it, it kind of is.

**LIZ:** I'm also only using Photoshop and not InDesign or Illustrator. So there's that.

**VERA:** It's just different ideas and how the brand works differently. And no two designers will create the same outcome, even though you have the rules. But the more rules you have, the more likely you're going to have an outcome that is recognisable as your brand. And loyalty comes from recognition. If you don't trust the brand, you're less likely to buy from them.

**LIZ:** Anybody who's listening and has been on the fence thinking, I'm a one-man band, or I'm just a small organisation, or I'm just getting started, they think, I'll get round to it, I don't need them — you know what, I'm going to give you some advice from my perspective. Every single day I refer to our brand guidelines to make sure I've got the colours correct. Every single day I double-check that I'm using the correct heading font and the correct body font. And I have it printed out right in front of me in a little booklet.

And I want to point out that you purchased that booklet on purpose for this exact reason, which I love. It's so cool.

**VERA:** I did. I got a little A5 sized clear file and I've slipped in the printouts of all of our brand guidelines for the different businesses that I have and also our clients as well. And it's just super easy to flick through and find them really quickly. So it's been handy.

**LIZ:** Yeah. And look, you can start with a one A4 page, right? Just: this is the logo, these are the colours. And you can give that to a printer — like if you want signage for your car, an office sign, business cards, as small as it might be. You can give those brand guidelines to the printer and that will help them immensely.

And then if your daughter or son comes into the business and helps out with social media — as happens often enough — they can follow that as well. And don't just go, oh, this is a pretty Canva template, let's use that. They can use Canva if they need to, but just stick to the fonts and the colours, please.

**VERA:** A hundred percent! And actually, I want to just touch on Canva — you've mentioned it.

**LIZ:** I'll be the first to admit here — we use Canva all the time. We use it for a lot of our social posts, templates, bits and pieces like that. But we are creating the designs based on the design that you've already created. So we already had the professional design done, we have the guidelines, we have that all loaded into our Canva account and we definitely use it. So by no means are we saying don't use Canva at all.

**VERA:** No, no. I wouldn't create logos in Canva, but there is a place for it. And it is often the easiest, most efficient way forward. And it is also getting better and better in terms of updates. But it's not for everything either.

**LIZ:** Yeah. You make a really good point. I want to explore that a little further — especially for those listeners who are perhaps a brand new business, or they've got a business idea and they know they need to start getting their branding created. For the sake of this conversation, let's just talk about a logo. If they're thinking, I'll just do something in Canva, they don't have a huge budget — what's your advice to them?

**VERA:** It is a tough one, because I do understand if you're struggling just to get started — the startup costs, the investment going into the materials you need to do your actual work. Then a logo is probably a lot on top of that, and you feel like it's not something you want to invest in right now.

And if it's really the beginning, you might get away with a handmade or Canva-made logo for a year. But it is actually more than just the logo — it's not just a pretty stamp on top of something, which again leads to recognition. You want to start out right, ideally, because the sooner you start your brand awareness, the sooner your clients get used to your visual brand, the better. It saves you a year of people seeing your face, your logo, your colours and recognising you.

But if you really can't, then maybe try and get advice, or research, or just try to keep the colours consistent. And even maybe find a graphic design student.

I think another thing that's really important is actually getting the right file types — so that when you go to get things printed, you actually have the files that are usable for printing, or for putting on your website or your social media. You need the correct file types and some tools that are not human-led can't give you those files. The second you want to scale that logo up, make it printable on a poster, billboard, whatever — even just good quality on a website — you need a certain size. And technology advances so much that a good size five years ago is not the same as it is nowadays.

So if you can make it work, at least get the logo done professionally. I would definitely recommend that. It is the foundation, and it is not fair to marketing and to your business and to design to always put that last. And we see that so often — like we're the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. We're the ones who should save your business when all else fails. Let's just start right from the beginning and make it sustainable in the long run. The same applies to design, the same applies to pretty much everything in life.

**LIZ:** Yeah, you're not wrong, actually. And if you want to hear more about that, check out episode three, where Emily and I talked a lot about the importance of building a strong foundation through a marketing strategy. It really touches into that as well.

We talked very briefly just before about the word "brand." So how would you actually define what a brand is? Because obviously a lot of people think, oh, a brand's your logo.

**VERA:** Yes. So the definition of brand can vary greatly. I think overall the word "brand" means everything — not just your visuals, but also your communications, who you are. Like your brand is your whole business, it's your office, the space you're in. It is whatever the client or the customers are seeing. So it can be the receptionist on the phone. It can be the email communication and the quotes, the invoices. It can be obviously the visual brand — the logo, the colours, the fonts — but it goes so much further than that, in my opinion.

And this is where the brand style guidelines can grow and expand in size massively. It can go from a one A4 page to a booklet of, I don't know, 50 pages. That's the really big companies. But you can put in your slogan, your tagline. You can put in that your communications on social media should be fun and quirky, or professional and serious. Or that your photos should always have golden hour light, like sunset or sunrise. Whether to have it very contrasty and blue and harsh, or that all your paragraphs should be right-aligned, or all your shapes should be circles and soft, or edgy with lots of corners — they all have their place.

Branding is — you always have a brand. Everything is a brand. The second you open your mouth, that is your brand. So you do want to think that through, because you want people to like and buy from you.

**LIZ:** Absolutely. And I think that really brings us full circle back to the very beginning of the conversation — the questions that you ask when you sit down with a new client who's wanting a brand for the first time. It actually has to have their personality come into it.

I mean, we're big believers here at C i Marketing that business owners, whether they like it or not, are the face behind the business. Sure, you can get away with not showing your face — that's fine. Although we encourage you to be brave and show your face, like we are right here. But that really comes into everything you just said — it is actually putting their personality into everything, whether it be visual communication or any other type of communication behind their brand.

**VERA:** Yes. Or at the very least — especially if you're going to be a big franchise, for example, that might not work as well because you don't have one face. But then you have brands that do that really well. Like Dulux, the paint company here in New Zealand with the dog. Like they have a face — it's just not their face, right?

**LIZ:** Yeah!

**VERA:** Pak'nSave has a little stick man. You can like it or not, but people know about it and it is their brand and it is recognisable. So if you don't show your face, find another face. And there's no reason a small company or organisation can't do that for themselves too. You don't have to be as big as Dulux and Pak'nSave.

**LIZ:** That's very true. And maybe that's how you become bigger if you want to be. Yeah, maybe that's the secret. Maybe we've just uncovered the secret to growing your business. Find yourself a stick man or a dog. You need a mascot. Everybody needs a mascot. We need a mascot.

**VERA:** It does make me think of how many times I've asked a client what their favourite animal is, because it does come into it. Honestly, there's a difference — the ideas that come to mind, the inspiration being sparked by those conversations and creative briefs — if you tell me your favourite animal is a lizard, it is very different than a bird or a whale. Just immediately your mind goes somewhere else.

And what you like is also going to align with your preferences, your style, your clothing, all of that. Not many people are so all over the place that they have a car that doesn't suit their style at all. You know, all those jokes, right?

**LIZ:** Of course. So it makes sense to bring that into your brand as well. It is your company and you want that to be aligned. So the creative brief questions can be fun if you let them. What's your favourite animal, Vera?

**VERA:** I should have thought of that before saying this. Oh sorry — this is where the indecisiveness comes back in. You can't have a zoo. It's not Noah's Ark.

I do like sea creatures quite a bit, like whales — and not dolphins as much, I mean they're fine, but I'm just... I like octopus. What's the plural — octopi?

**LIZ:** Unsure.

**VERA:** You know, I have this funny question that I've always asked people. I don't remember where it came from, but I just made it up in my head when I meet new people and it's completely un-business-related whatsoever. But I completely work people out based on their answer. And I always ask people: if you were picking a big king-size block of chocolate, what flavour would you choose? Because if they say fruit and nut, I know exactly who they are.

**LIZ:** And they're probably not my people, but that's OK. I'm just not a fruit and nut person. But then again, we also discovered that chocolate and nuts is something that you can't stand, because apparently all Austrian desserts have hazelnut in them?

**VERA:** I didn't know that until I moved to New Zealand because I was blown away when you showed me — I did not realise how much hazelnut is in everything we do. I think nuts and chocolate is a pretty good combo because it's crunchy and sweet. So I'm going to say hazelnut chocolate would be quite near the top, probably. Doesn't really matter what nut.

**LIZ:** See, I'm one of those really awkward people — the answer is Turkish delight. And I am very judged. I realise I am not for some people because of that reason. And that's OK.

**VERA:** I love that you have the guts to say that. And also many people who are like, no, I like dark chocolate, like 80% — no one likes dark chocolate, come on!

**LIZ:** And doesn't that instantly give you the concept of what kind of person they are in the rest of their lives?

**VERA:** Yeah, yeah, I can see that.

**LIZ:** I encourage everybody who's listening — if you're listening first thing in the morning, find someone today, even if you're out buying a coffee, and just be brave and ask them what kind of chocolate do you like? And just see if it kind of matches their vibe. And please come and tell us. I would love to know what your thoughts are. Check us out on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn or TikTok and flick us a message. We're C i Marketing on all of those channels, and we would love to hear how that goes.

I actually have another question for you though. Have you got a favourite brand you've ever created and what would it be?

**VERA:** It's always the one I'm working on currently, because you just get so into it. You just get so into that space that you have random ideas just in the middle of the day for that brand because you're right in there.

Again, it leads back to house renovations. If you're in the middle of your house renovation, you're going to like what you're doing right now the best, because that's why you're doing it — that's why you're putting those tiles in, that's why you're choosing these colours. But in five years time, when you move on to your next house or renovate someone else's house, you're going to be convinced that that one is actually the best one you've ever done or the best ideas you ever had.

**LIZ:** I love that answer. That is so cool. I didn't actually expect that's what you would say, but it's such a cool answer.

Something we have come across with a client we've been working with recently is the importance of typography — the font styles and choices. In fact, obviously that comes up with everybody that we work with. Can you explain a little bit about font choices and why it's important? You're not just going to go and pick Verdana or Arial or — how do you even pronounce those?

**VERA:** Don't ask me. Good point. And also it's not only about what suits the style that you're going for, but also what's usable these days across platforms.

**LIZ:** Yes, that's a very good point.

**VERA:** Serif fonts — there are quite a few that are usable on most platforms. Those are the very common ones, but they're definitely trickier. Serif fonts are the ones that have the little line at the end of the corners of each letter — the less modern ones, I'd say, but the classical ones. Sort of like what you'd see in a newspaper or magazine. That kind of style.

You wouldn't see — and again, a New Zealand example — but Skinny with a serif font. That would clash, like having a quirky, fun, jokey, bold brand with serif. Just, it's weird.

**LIZ:** Yeah. And for those international people who are listening, Skinny is a mobile phone provider, and they have some pretty out-there advertising.

**VERA:** You could even think of Uber, right? Well, of course you could make it work — it could be a good challenge. But funnily enough, most people intuitively pick a font that — not the exact font name, but like a font family that actually works with them. And most of the time I would say it is actually the sans serif — the modern ones, the bolder, cleaner, minimalistic ones.

But if you have a heritage-type, elegant, luxury brand, there's a reason why the other fonts exist. They're beautiful in their own way — just a very different style.

And then you have the scripted, handwritten type styles as well. But those are really, really hard to work with in terms of being readable everywhere and being accepted on all the digital platforms. Like even just our office printer — the amount of times we have to convert something into a PDF to get it to print because the client's font is something the printer doesn't accept, which is ridiculous. Like I shouldn't have to choose my brand based on an office printer, but if our client can't print their own quotes, that's a problem.

**LIZ:** Yeah, it's a really valid point, and something that people need to think about. And so actually choosing something that is kind of more standard is potentially a really good direction to go.

But also even across social media platforms — TikTok, Instagram, Facebook reels — the importance of putting captions and text onto a screen to work with the algorithm. There are certain fonts you can choose from. So maybe even have a look at those platforms and go, oh yeah, this one could work with my brand. Or even talk to your designer and say, hey, I've already got a brand — what font from the reel options on Instagram, for example, do you think would be the best choice for me?

**VERA:** Yeah, 100%. And again, this is where brand style guidelines come in. Fonts are tricky. They really are. And there are designers just for that, right? I'm talking about niches, because that's not me — I love a good font, I love searching for them, but creating one, that's not my specialty. But all respect to them, because it's amazing. And there are so many such cool fonts out there.

Also — note for those not in the design or marketing space at all — you do have to purchase some of them. Please be aware that they come at a cost. There are free ones as well, but especially for commercial use, you want to make sure you have the right licence. Because there's a creative licence on them and you do want the designer to get paid as well.

**LIZ:** Because those fonts don't just appear from nowhere. An actual person — although potentially some AI stuff these days too — but somebody at some point has been involved in the process of actually creating that font, just like people create music. And the big companies actually had their own font created for them, right? So no one else can use it, which is quite cool if you think about it.

**VERA:** But not everyone has that budget.

**LIZ:** Well Vera, this has been such an interesting chat. We have covered so many different things. And I mean, I've obviously known you for some time, but I've even learned a lot today. Honestly, the amount that is involved in what you do for a job — everything that goes on inside your mind, your creativity, your passion for what you do — just blows me away. And I hope that it's really inspired everybody who's listening to really look at their own brand — whether they're starting up, whether they've been going for a while and think they might need a refresh — and just think about the importance of being consistent across your brand, especially your visual brand.

**VERA:** Thank you. Thanks for having me. You're making me blush. No, that was very fun and it was less scary than I thought it would be, being on a podcast.

**LIZ:** You did so well. And I'm really looking forward to next time. If anybody has any specific things they would like Vera and I to speak about in the future, please don't hesitate to reach out. As I mentioned on our last episode, we are literally building this plan as we go, and it is based on what our experiences are and what people are wanting to hear. So please just let us know if you want to hear more from Vera and what you would like to hear about. Until next time.

Thanks so much for joining The Visual Marketing Podcast brought to you by C i Marketing. I'm your host, Liz, and I can't wait to share more episodes with you.