Welcome to the visual marketing podcast brought to you by C i Marketing, where we explore how to show up consistently, be more visible, and connect with the right people through your marketing. I'm your host, Liz.

Hey Billie, welcome to the Visual Marketing Podcast. It is awesome to have you on here. I've managed to convince you to come on.

I know. I'm not very in front of the camera oriented. And funnily enough, that is the topic of our podcast today. So it's gonna be a good one. you actually work for Cirrus International, my other business, mostly. How long have you been with us? I've been here almost

Two and a half years.

And we actually relocated you from the North Island of New Zealand, for those who are not from New Zealand listening or watching. we're on a completely different island. We relocated you, we uplifted your entire life for you to come to us. How was that for you?

Great. I already wanted to get out of Auckland anyway. Sorry to the Aucklanders listening. We love you. it's just it was too busy and I found myself drowning in

A big group of people. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. So you've enjoyed living down here

in probably fifteen degrees colder than what you're used to? Yep. Much colder, but a lot slower too, which I've really enjoyed. That's pretty cool. Yeah. And you've definitely found your people here as well. You've got lots of friends and activities and stuff that you do outside of work. Yeah, it takes time when you move cities, but two years in I feel pretty established here now with with my people and

My circles. That's pretty awesome.

today we're going to be talking about photography, but when we first bought you on, the job actually wasn't for photography. I offered you a job helping us out in the lift or elevator business that I have. and photography was a bit of an afterthought because I learned that you

had an interest in it and you sort of done a bit of photography for some friends here and there as a hobby. You had your own camera and I said, hey, like I might need a hand now and then with some photography. And it's actually turned out to be quite a reasonable sized part of your job.

what were your thoughts when I first said that to you and said hey there could be some photography involved? I knew that you were a photographer

Obviously and when I got the job offered here, it wasn't for photography, but I did have the back of my mind I was like, I might learn a bit more about photography, which is something I had been doing for fun here and there for a wee bit before you reached out. And so when you asked me if I was interested in

learning more, I just jumped on it. I was so excited. That's so cool. What do you think you would be doing now?

If you hadn't come down here to Christchurch, do you think you would have gone down the photography track or I knew that I wanted to. I had done like like a friend's twenty first and this thing for a friend here and there. And I would always walked away from it, absolutely buzzing. And I remember like saying to my people down there, like, my God, if I ever got to the point where I could do this properly, it would I would just it would be the best.

tell me about your photography journey. Like what made you actually pick up a camera or buy a camera or be given a camera in the first place?

there are a few photographers in my family. There is my grandfather, there is you, there is my great uncle. and so I've always been around big cameras. but it actually came from I received a telescope.

as a Christmas present one year and I'm a big space nerd. And my grandfather had done a bit of astrophotography back in the day. And I had asked him how he did that, 'cause I was like, I just got this telescope, I'm so interested in it and a couple weeks later he found an old camera hidden in the back of a wardrobe and he gifted it to me. And

told me the basics of how it worked and sent me on my way. And

so I did a few things here and there. never actually ended up doing astrophotography. The telescope wasn't good quality at all. There was no option for that. But I did do Friends' birthdays and

Took it wherever I went and took shots of family and just for fun and it slowly snowballed into something that I wanted to pursue more and more. That's so cool. And what an awesome way to start from a telescope right through to where you are today. Was there a moment or has there been a moment during your time working here that you actually clicked that you're not just taking photos, you're actually a photographer? Yeah, it would probably

be the time that I was describing my job and I was like, and I do photos sometimes and you and one other colleague snatched me out of it and was like, Why are you t saying it like that? Yeah. We we we talked you out of saying I do photos to I am a photographer.

I d I think it's a level of like imposter syndrome as well. Like I didn't feel like I could use the label photographer for a really long time. Why do you think you felt that way?

I don't know, I think I I underestimated the sort of work I was doing for a really long time and like I'm not a photographer, I'm just your second that sometimes works with you and all that sort of stuff. And but, you know, by that time that you were telling me to just use the word photographer, I had already done events, I had done things solo, I'd I'd been actively working in the industry for a good

year and a half at least before I was like, okay. I've I've earned that title. Isn't it crazy that we can sometimes feel that way? Like even I'm obviously substantially older than you, and have been around for a wee while, but I still have the moments of imposter syndrome with pieces of my job too. Like why? Why do we as humans do that? I think it's particularly common in creative areas as well. Yeah. You know, because

most there's plenty of people that do creative things and pursue avenues down creative paths that never get to make an income off of it or never get to a professional level. And it's hard to find that line where it's a hobby versus like an identity. there's no

particular threshold

when it comes to creative industries. And isn't that bizarre because

I mean, we've certainly come across people who say, gosh, you must have a nice camera, it takes nice photos. Yeah. and people say stuff like, you know, I've got this I don't have a lot of budget for this job. Like could you guys just come and take some pictures? I'm sure you've had that as well, personally outside of work too.

like I'll give you credit, like I'll tag you on on socials.

And like, would you do that to an accountant? we've been professionally trained. We've spent an extremely large amount of money on the equipment that we have because we have good quality equipment.

It's no different to anybody else who's a professional, you know, a hairdresser, a a lawyer, any of those sorts of professions where they're using their own skill set. Why why would people do that?

I know, it's crazy how many like inquiries you go into when you receive them, you get excited and how often that turns

disappointment of not feeling respected for the work that you do. It's crazy.

is it a lack of understanding, do you think, of them actually understanding that what we do is a it's a job. It's a real job. Yeah,

I think since it's seen as non essential or it's something you don't always study for, it's there's less respect for it and it's often underestimated. especially since it is so hard to do it professionally that a lot of people do it as a hobby instead. So it's

then becomes your entire profession and is looked at as a hobby. I think you're absolutely right. And two of the areas that we've worked together quite a lot on are event photography and real estate or property photography. Both of those in require significant amount of skills and equipment and it's either a fast-paced environment or you have to really understand what you're doing. Talking about events, like there's no chance to redo a shot

Especially if you're at a a wedding or a conference or something along those lines of prize giving where stuff happens really fast, you also have to be really good with people because you have to interact with the client, you have to interact with the people you're taking photos of. You might have to deal with people who are intoxicated perhaps, or

you know, just completely forget that they're on stage getting an award and they need to look at the camera and get a photo taken. how have you

Coped one with stress or the pressure of something like an event? I personally love the pressure. I before I did this, I worked in a lot of kitchens. I absolutely like thrive off of pressure. Doing event photography has completely married

like my creative side and that kind of work into one. I absolutely love it. I being on my

pose a lot, constantly having eyes in the back of your head of what everything's doing because the perfect shot could be behind you. having people skills and and navigating difficult people at an event while also still doing your job and still taking the photos because that's what you're paid there to do.

has not come incredibly easy. Yeah. it definitely is over time

Growing maybe a bit more of a backbone. character building, perhaps. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And learning when to speak and how to speak and when to move on and ignore something that's going on. it's something you that can't really be taught. You have to learn it as you go. yeah. Yeah. For sure.

Yeah. I know you've come back to the office sometimes and we've exchanged stories about situations that have happened. Whether it be you know photography you've done in your for your personal life with your friends, events and bits and pieces or staged stuff or whether it be, you know, work events and we've gone, my gosh, like how hard was that situation? But, you know, hey, this is how we handled it, you know, this is it's also a learning experience, isn't it? Because like

I might come back and say, Hey, I've just had this situation, this is what happened, this is what I did.

I could have maybe handled this bit a little bit differently. Here's what I'd do next time. And because you've been in similar circumstances, we're able to exchange those stories and learn from each other, which is pretty cool. Yeah, yeah.

I think when I started working with you, I did rely on you quite heavily to navigate those situations, like l panic, diet, you're like, what do I do? Yeah. But even when it comes down to making people comfortable, not necessarily dealing with a difficult situation, but actually

keeping people comfortable in front of the camera and doing the opposite, trying to bring them out more. A hundred percent. that looks different for everyone. Yes. And it is hard to find that with some people. And the more you do it, the more

different personalities you pick up on and how to talk to them and what they might need. And it I've found that it sometimes it's just comes down to a conversation prior of asking them what do you need. Yeah. which

I didn't even think like when I first started in photography, I didn't even realise that was an issue that I'd encounter.

Yeah. Which I should have because I'm personally someone that absolutely squirms in front of the camera. We're doing you're doing great right now. Well done. I've always said I reckon our job is actually ninety percent people skills and ten percent photography, which

you know, is something that like you say, you can only learn by experience and doing and just having an open mind and and having a filter I think too, like being able to adapt to a situation, whether you be I don't know, for example if you're someone who maybe by mistake swears on the odd occasion, if you've got a job at a school, you've gotta like go, no, I've got to be a different person now or you know, maybe you're at a rioty wedding and you wanna get these,

you know, people racked up and keen to be on camera and the Have maybe had a few drinks, like actually almost changing the way that you are as a person around them to get them excited about being on. But at the same time, you also might have great auntie and uncle sitting in the corner who are really nervous. And it's really important to capture them because the couple really do wanna have those memories, those images as memories. So and the same goes for video too, obviously, is is helping people to be feeling comfortable. And that could be so many different types of people.

Even at one event, right? Mm-hmm.

but that almost becomes second nature the more you do it. Like going into a situation with lots of pressure, like an event or something like that, I find it easy now to sort of go into a zone and put on that.

persona, whatever it needs to be for that situation and it almost happens by muscle memory at this point. Do you reckon there was a moment where that switched for you and it just clicked or did it like ease in over time?

there was different for different kinds of photography. Yeah. When doing real estate photography, that was like it got more natural and I knew how to talk to real estate agents and vendors more and more over time. Yeah. Whereas event

It was the first w wedding I had done with you that I kind of saw like a full day start to finish, sunrise to midnight. Yeah. The whole process and the kind of person you need to be and all the different struggles of handling people. Mm-hmm.

your job's important too, but also for the people you're shooting, they've got a million other things going on. Yes. And having to still do your job and do them justice while being sensitive to the needs of every all the chaos around you. is quite specific situation to situation. But I

that was my first encounter of actually seeing

it from start to finish and all the all the chaos that ensued and I think that was a really big learning point for me to then at my own events afterward know how to talk and be able to really like put on that persona and think on my feet and talk to everyone.

all at the same time. Yeah. Totally. And

I've even found at events that you sometimes have to take on the role of something completely different to photographer. So it might be like helping s you know, somebody put a tie on properly or someone needs a handlifting a table or, you know, like you end up doing all these random little things but i you don't

say no to any it because it actually is for the greater good of your job for the people you're working with. It helps, you know, you you essentially become like a counselor,

like you know, a cleaner, like you're doing all of the things all at the same time, right? Yeah. Not only though does it help you get your job done if things happen quickly and efficiently and if you can help it you would, but also you're gaining the trust of the people you're shooting and that brings out their confidence and they're a bit more

talkative with you, a bit more comfortable posing for the camera or whatever they're doing. And it just benefits everybody in the long run.

Yeah, I completely agree with you. And another type of photography we've done a lot of work with is property photography, where you find yourself actually in somebody's home. And sometimes they may be home during that time, although it we'd it was easier for us if they if they're not, but sometimes that's just the way, or they come home part way through.

or you're dealing with like rental properties where the tenants are there and they're maybe feeling a little bit uncomfortable about the fact the home they are living in is about to be for sale. is there anything about real estate photography that surprised you that like general people just wouldn't even know about,

Well the entire way that we shoot houses in the rooms is something I could have never even thought up on my own.

I would not be able to take the photos I could unless I had like the extensive training that I did with you 'cause

it's quite a lengthy process to take one photo. Essentially it's, you know, ten to twenty photos in one place all merged together.

The other thing that I found really difficult with that though is that the people you're working with don't understand that and they want things to be done quicker or they keep standing in shots and they're like, Well, I already saw you take a photo. The other thing is how sometimes you can pick up that people are quite nervous to have someone with a lot of gear in their house, which is understandable. but

having them sort of helicopter you and trying to navigate that is difficult because you are an intruder in their home and selling a house is already stressful enough. did you

come up with your own sort of techniques? Like you would have seen the way I handle those situations, which I had to come up with myself over time. Did you come up with any of your own techniques to overcome some of those situations? The main thing I always do

is just listen to them because people, especially when nervous, often talk about how stressful it is and how weird they're finding the whole process. And if you ask them one question, they'll talk and talk and talk and air it all out to you and you just keep listening. And often that keeps them out of your way sometimes, but also again builds that trust as well.

And just having an active listening air and going, Yeah, that I that

sounds so stressful or I'll only be this much longer and then I'll get out of your hair. You don't need any more of any more stresses for the day. All that sort of stuff. people also love when you love their pets as well, I've

found. We do love a house with a with an animal, don't we? We actually used to brag like if we had shoots at the same time, we'd come back to the office and go, Well did you have any animals? How many did you have? What did you have? Show me the cat

Or the dog that you had. Yeah.

I remember I think we both did a twilight shoot at the same time and you were like, I have a ragdoll kitten. And I was like, Well, I had a sausage dog. That was I'm not sure who won that. I think that was a pretty difficult one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I was there for all the animals. People would always be like, my god, are you okay with dogs or cats? And I'm like, I I will only enter your home if you have an animal.

my favourite is when they're in the shot too, when you get a cat that's super calm and happy. Yeah. And just like leave just I can get rid of them. No, leave them there. Leave them there. They're fine. And I mean, I know personally I love to go back onto old, old listings of the houses I had when I was a kid and I can see my pets in the old real estate like the archived

real estate listings in

their photos and it's just the sweetest thing. That's so cool. I never thought of that. I love that. That's such an awesome thing. Yeah, it's like

a little time travel capsule. that's really cool, especially when you know, animals are not with us forever as well. So it's nice to see. How sucky is that? the most. I know. Yeah. We could very easily just do an episode talking about

cats, I think. But we are digressing ever so slightly. I have a lot to say about cats, but should probably read all the And about twenty five minutes into a conversation, I observed that four of us at one end of the table had all been talking about cats for a good twenty five, thirty minutes. And the other end of the table, I looked at them and I was like, you guys are all dog people.

Like we we had somehow managed to inadvertently separate ourselves one end of the table to the other, cats versus dogs. we continued to talk about cats for a good sort of ten, fifteen minutes longer after

that. And the others started joining in and they were like, What are you talking about? And we're like, Well, cats, of course. Yeah. Isn't it interesting how much it tells you about a person, whether or not they're a cat or a dog person? my gosh, yes. I may be biased, but I have found that

People are always dog people until they meet the right cat and then it's cats from then on. Really? Yeah. Have you encountered that more than once? My partner has always he's always been a dog person. Yeah. He met Jasper.

Yeah. Fell in love. Jasper the cat. Jasper the cat. Yeah. Fell in love. Jasper fell in love with him. and now all he says all the time is, I can't wait to get a cat. That's hilarious. Not even thinking about a dog. That is just too funny.

Because it's their superior. I mean, obviously. I mean, you don't have to tell me you're you're preaching to the converted here. You know, once you know, you know. yeah. Right. For sure. For sure. Yeah. I mean, like, I'll I like dogs and I particularly like sausage dogs, but I wouldn't say I'm a dog person. I personally

want a chihuahua. But I in saying that, I couldn't imagine me going through any part of my life

From here till the end, not having at least one cat. I just couldn't. Yeah. There's always gotta be a cat in my life, I think. Yes. Yeah.

I completely agree with you. Yeah. Yeah, I d I don't know my life without a cat, for sure. I think it'd just be a bit miserable. It's just not a life worth living. No. No, a catless life is not a life worth l living. Are are we crazy cat ladies? Maybe. Yeah. Don't tell anybody.

Stay tuned, maybe in forty years I'll have twenty of them and then we'll have our answer.

Yeah. I'm not sure I'll still be doing podcasts then. You might have to take over. Hmm. I'll I'll find a way to let the world know. Yeah. Sounds good. talking about digressing, I've got a fun little game I want to play with you. A little birdie in our office has told me that you have a secret hidden talent.

I believe your secret

hidden talent is t

in today's sort of situation where AI is becoming more widely used by people and businesses. I understand that you have a bit of a knack for telling, looking at a piece of content or reading a piece of content and knowing if it's been written by AI or by a human. Yeah. I

My pattern recognition is through the roof and usually it takes me about ten seconds to look at something and see. But I happen to have prepared something earlier.

I'm going to put you to the test right here. So this podcast goes out both on YouTube for people to watch it and also

all of the audio channels. So we are going to I'm going to hand Billie a piece of paper that has four pieces of AI or not AI content in writing.

Billie's going to have a look at it, but I'm also going to read them out so that people who are listening can hear as well. full disclosure, I had a look at this prior to this podcast and I tried to guess.

And I didn't know the answers. And then when I checked with Emily who's our copywriter, I was completely wrong. Doesn't give me a lot of confidence, I'll be real. So here is something I have prepared earlier. I am now handing Billie a piece of paper that has four pieces of content. Now this is what I would call like a social post, basically. So Billie's gonna have a look in at that and I'm gonna also read them out.

So number one, let me just fold this over so that Billie can't see my notes on here. Let me fold that over just a little bit more. Okay, cool. We're good. Right, number one.

So we have the camera with a flash emoji and in capital sorry in in bold print the title says unlock the power of professional smartphone photography. There's an exclamation mark and then there is the stars emoji and

Each of those words have a capital letter at the start of them.

The body copy says, In today's fast-paced digital landscape, creating high-quality visual content is essential for building a strong online presence. Whether you're a business owner or a content creator, leveraging natural light, thoughtful composition, and consistent framing can significantly enhance your results. Then there is a dash.

Helping maximize engagement and elevate your content. Ultimately, professional imagery doesn't require expensive equipment. Dash. It simply requires the right approach by embracing

and continuously refining your technique. You can strengthen your brand, unlock your creative potential, and create a lasting impression.

I'm gonna go on with this one straight away. Do you think that has been written by Emily or do you think that one has been written by AI and why? I think this one has been written by AI and a few of the tells for me, first of all, the title, there is an emoji at the start and the end. Yeah. That's not particularly common

there is also obviously the dashes, which

some people use, but it's definitely skyrocketed since Chat GPT. Yep. there is

Writing in threes, there's leveraging natural light, thoughtful composition and consistent framing. that is something that is almost always included in something like this written by AI. Fascinating. There is also the structure in the second paragraph the AI typically uses saying something isn't or doesn't.

But it does. So it says ultimately professional imagery doesn't require expensive equipment. It simply requires the right approach. And that is a structure that Chat GPT always uses, saying, it isn't this, it's this. The word simply is used a lot by AI as

Would you like to know the answer, whether you're right or wrong? Yeah, go on. This version one was written by AI. Well done, Billie. There's quite a few tells on there. It's a next game. That is absolutely so interesting. Okay, we are gonna go on to version two. There's four of these, so just so you know. Okay, so I just have to fold this over again a little bit because I wanna make sure Billie can't see my notes. Okay, version two.

There are no emojis that I can see in this one. There is a title, once again, in bold font, and there is a capital letter at the start, the very first word, but nowhere else in the title. How to get better results from your phone camera. And then the body copy. Good phone photography isn't about having the newest device. It's all about having the light that's available,

keeping your phone completely steady, and thinking about what's in the frame.

Before you actually press the button. These small adjustments can make a noticeable difference to the final image. In the next paragraph: Natural light usually produces the most flattering results, while a simple background helps keep the focus on your subject. With a little practice, these techniques become second nature and can help you create content that looks more polished and professional.

Do you think this has been written by Emily or do you think this has been written by AI?

There's one thing in there that sticks out as AI behavior, but I reckon that it's maybe been put in there to trip me up. And that is the it isn't about, but it is about this. otherwise this seems like a fairly human piece of writing.

Why do you think it's a human piece of writing? What gives you that?

The sentences are a lot longer. Mm-hmm. AI and chat GPT usually doesn't have longer sentences. It's either the structure is either short sentences. Yeah. Or if they are long, there's a lot of commas and there's the listing things and threes and all that sort of stuff. Okay. Whereas this has long sentences that don't follow that structure.

So what are we locking in? Is this Emily or is this AI? I think this is Emily. You think this is Emily? This piece was written by AI. Really? Yeah.

I think something that may be the case is that we've been pretty good at training AI AI platforms to actually sound human. So I know that when Emily did write these, she actually had to tell ChatGPT,

To be more AI and less her when she was doing it. So that might be what's happened there. But you did pick up on the fact that there was something in there. So I think as well, obviously this is used dur this is used the AI that's used is a business AI. Yes.

that learns a lot better. I don't think there's a lot of businesses yet that are investing in paying for a more advanced AI.

That actually has the capability to do this. Good point. So I think if you scroll through LinkedIn, the average AI post is gonna be really

tell heavy. Like the one that always has the three bullet pointed lists with the the rocket emojis next to it? Or the the pointing arrow. yeah, every time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, good point. Well, we don't have any of those pointing arrows in here. We are gonna move on to version three, second to last. We have no emojis in this one.

Once again there is a title that is in bold print and there is a capital letter on the first word only. Professional phone photography starts with the basics.

The body copy. You don't need the latest phone to capture professional looking images. Read that again. You don't. Next paragraph. It's incredibly important to remember that small changes can have significant impact. Dash. Especially when it comes to lighting, composition and stability.

Paying attention to these fundamentals can make a noticeable difference, helping your photos and videos feel more polished and engaging.

Third paragraph. Consistency is key. By focusing on a few core techniques and practicing them regularly, you'll create content that looks more professional and connect more effectively with your audience.

The results speak for themselves.

Billie, do you think version three was written by Emily or by AI?

It seems like AI, but you know, now I'm wondering if it's been written by a human to look like AI. But some things that tell me that are short sentences, read that again, full stop, you don't. which is a chat GPT structure that absolutely does my head in. Every every sentence and some of some captions are four or five words long.

And it's just short sentence, short sentence, short sentence. although it doesn't necessarily follow that in the rest of it. There's an dash, but you know, that's not a completely reliable tal these days.

The end the last sentence also spoke out to me. Usually when AI writes a caption, it ends on a short sentence that either doubles down on what it said or is a hook, so it asks a question or something like that.

I don't know if pre chat GPT, if that wouldn't be necessarily something that someone would write naturally, the finishing on a short sentence. Mm-hmm. It might be a comma to then talk reinforce what you're saying. Yeah.

just for our listeners and viewers, Emily did choose these four pieces of content to get harder and harder as we went through to see how it would go. So we are at the second to last, almost the hardest one. I'll lock in AI, but I don't trust that you're not trying to trick me. I have been known to trick you on occasion. In this instance, Billie, version three is written by AI. Well done.

And finally trust issues from this. You are two from three. Two from three. You got this. Okay. To win me making you a coffee after this. Best prize ever. Version four. there are no emojis visible in this one. The title once again is in bold writing. There is a capital letter at the start of the title only.

Phone photography made easy. And the body copy. You don't need the latest iPhone to take great images for your socials, exclamation mark. Thinking about lighting, making sure you have a steady hand and really thinking about what is in your frame makes all the difference to your final image. Step away from the window, out of the shadows, and go for natural lighting. Clear away the clutter in the background and make sure you haven't cut anyone's head off in the shot.

Think about what looks good when you look at the screen, and with a bit of practice you will be creating great looking social content. Billie, has this piece been written by AI or has it been written by Emily?

I think that this has actually been written by Emily. a few tells for that. It seems less American already. which I don't know if this is gonna make sense because obviously they'd use sentences like this in America, I assume. I've not been there. But the title itself, phone photography made easy. Easy is a word that we love.

in New Zealand. Mm-hmm.

I think it uses less buzzwords. Like if you look at the previous one, it was using words like composition, stability, fundamentals, whereas this isn't. I also think the advice that it's telling is a bit more natural, maybe written by someone who isn't a photographer. Okay. It's

you know, get clutter out of background of the shot is pretty straightforward stuff.

there's just certain words that seem like and with a bit with a bit of seems less proper and Americanized. great looking as well gives me that impression. Yeah. Yeah.

So what are we locking in? Are we locking in this is written by Emily or this is written by AI? I'm gonna say this is written by Emily. Billie, for your final answer.

Version four is written by Emily, you are correct. Yay. I think we have proven you have quite the knack for working out what is written by AI and what isn't. I mean you caught me out on the

one, but you know. Again, that's I reckon you might have been overthinking it and thinking we were tricking you though. Probably. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. No. I think you've actually come up with some really interesting things.

There are things that I actually hadn't even picked up myself and I use AI a lot. W we love AI here for making jobs more effective and efficient and being able to help clients with it as well and teaching them how to use it better. But yeah, you have to use it correctly and authentically human as well. There has to be a huge human part of it, right?

Yeah. You don't want to strip away authenticity. I was curious as to what things I pointed out. That were indicators that you didn't know about?

the threes was a really interesting one for me. Like noticing like I've always noticed bullet point lists and threes for sure, but I've never thought about the threes in the sentence structure. and also the other one was the the can't the like the negative and then the positive. That was really interesting because the more I think about it, yeah, it definitely does that.

Now that I've pointed that out, you will not be able to unsear. I scroll through LinkedIn, every second post has a sentence.

that's almost most usually

its own solo paragraph or section that says it's not this, it's this. It's not about

something and then a correction of itself after. And it's especially unusual often when the it's not this sort of comes out of left field when the previous writing hasn't even indicated that anyone thinks that it is the thing you're saying it isn't. I'm using isn't isn't a lot and I'm getting a little bit no words have meaning anymore, but I hope that makes sense. Yeah,

no, it totally does. Like, yeah, I know exactly what you mean. and that's certainly gonna make me check Or triple check everything that I do. Have you got any tips for people on like when they're using AI to maybe write their LinkedIn posts or anything else, like what they should do? Is it in the prompting to start with or is it in the checking afterwards or both? Or what are your thoughts? Or just don't use it at all? I I personally would I mean it's personal preference in the content I'm reading and how drowned out.

human written content is these days that when it's I can tell it's AI, I often scroll because not because it's bad, but

because it's always the same thing. Yeah. And so you're not even reading what they've written because the content of it, even if they had a good plan behind it, you don't want to see it.

Yeah. I it's not about the content that they've prepared and prompted.

I often will get two sentences and realise it's AI and scroll it does depersonalize content a lot. especially when you can tell that there isn't even an effort to make it your own.

Yeah, that's it, right? Like it's actually not even that person anymore. And then you just lose the trust or the will to even care about it, right? Yeah, yeah. It definitely turns

something off in my head in terms of interest in whatever the post or content is about.

There's worries about if it's

ethical We know that the world is moving that direction and it's happening really fast. And people are being they're either running from it, jumping on it, or they're stuck in a middle ground of like questioning both sides. And

I haven't I haven't grown to trust it quite yet. But I can see how having that sort of service at your fingertips is very beneficial. but I just I don't want to see human art and words go away. Yeah, I really like that perspective. something that actually going back to the photography side and marrying these two together, during the two and a half years that you've been here.

We have seen a change in the editing tools that we've had and there's been a lot of AI editing come in and it's gotten better and better during that time. What are your thoughts on that around the ethics of it and also the workflow and how it's made? I know it certainly made my job easier when I'm editing. What are your thoughts on how it is for you?

Yeah, it makes it easier. Like if you want to remove something like a cat from a room, for example, because

We probably should give them the option to have the photo with and without the cat. Unfortunately, sometimes

they don't want the cat in the photo. I don't get it. But sometimes you have to remove the cat. And it's quick and it's easy, but sometimes you just get something totally out of the blue. And so like it replaces the cat with a small child or something? With another cat. And it completely gives you a different cat. It's the neighbor's cat.

What was the point of that? and then you end up doing it yourself anyway. It's gotten more efficient. but there's some things that I don't even know how to go around using AI in those sorts of parts of editing anymore. I don't 'cause they've almost buried the option not to, because editing platforms want you to use the AI. Yeah. To

do that sort of like removal. Yep. And they're burying the option to do it

another way. Interesting. So there's I almost feel like it's skill regression a little bit. Yeah. It's it's like w in my childhood where I was probably one of the last people that kind of learned how to drive a manual vehicle, a manual car, and then

you know, I've never driven one since I did my restricted driver's license, right? I've only ever driven an auto. And so if you were to give me a manual car li right now, I'm not afraid to admit I wouldn't have a clue how to drive one. Can you drive a manual car? I've never touched a manual car in my life. So similar point, right? Like are we taking away like people's actually s their skill set to use a camera and understand the basics, like even in an exposure triangle, because you can fix so much now with AI and your editing.

But is that ethical? Is it actually a depiction of what's real? And what's interesting with real estate photography is it has to be because legally you can't alter things to be something they're not. Yeah, it does create quite a grey area in terms of the how legal your photos are. If you're changing them a lot, you enter a grey area and you don't want to be responsible for an agent getting called out on something.

things like you wanna remove something, but the AI doesn't actually know what was behind it and you didn't because you forgot to move whatever you're removing and you didn't see that there was actually a hole behind it, that was something like that.

I guess collectively, like our advice between us would probably be to anybody who's maybe at the beginning of their photography journey is actually still go back to the basics. Like I know I I gave you a photography book, like a physical book, the very beginning of your journey of professional photography, and y sure some of it is completely irrelevant because the cameras you get these days don't have that functionality or don't you know, you can't buy them. Although they are coming back into fashion, funnily enough. but

Actually going back to the basics and starting from the beginning so you understand the core concept so that if you do come across a circumstance where maybe AI is gonna fail you, you have that to fall back on, right?

it's interesting, you don't know what's gonna be valued in the future because if with any job, if what you do gets easier and easier 'cause it's more and more automated.

What is that job gonna look like in the future? What skills do you need for it? Is a the introduction of AI going to change the job entirely, or you know, is there going to be a real value for doing it the human way instead? Like you say, old cameras coming back, analog photography, anything analog, analog music is coming back as things get more advanced.

And I think that is grasping onto more human things and the way it used to be done. And there's more in the process, like to get your film photos, you have to go see someone who physically does them. And it's a novelty that we're lacking these days in in the way things work now. Yeah. So you can't say that

Photography is gonna be really or any job is going to be really easy in twenty years because it has AI because you know, we might the real core of the industry and what's really valued might be stepping away from AI and stuff like that. And because I know more and more people I've seen a trend of people getting their weddings done in entirely analogue film and photography. Yeah. You recently

borrowed my very first camera, which is a film SLR.

Yes. Did you enjoy using that? I loved it so much. The only film I had used in the past was point and shoot. Yeah. disposal

cameras. I absolutely enjoyed working with the film camera. I actually challenged myself and I ended up not doing anything on auto. I did everything on manual. Well done. Unless I handed the camera to someone else to take a photo of for me. Yeah. I might have put it on aperture priority and done the settings beforehand.

But I was it was a real test of my skills and I was so happy with what I got in the end because I only ended up out of two rolls of film having like two or three photos that weren't usable in the end. And I was so stoked with that. But I absolutely loved the novelty of doing it properly and have kept all the negatives so I've got them the roles at home and yeah, it's

something that you lack when you work.

And live in a very technical world. Totally. If you were speaking to somebody who was kind of like you, but maybe like, I don't know, five years ago, and they're just picking up a camera and they think, Yeah, actually I could see a future in this for me, do you have any advice for them?

Doing every single kind of photography there is. Because at this point I've done everything. Probably not everything, but so many different avenues, and I've found my favorite. But I wouldn't have gotten there unless I tried real estate, event.

Portrait, corporate, all that sort of photography. Yeah. because my favorite to go down now is event and like one-to-one portrait. Yep. not Creative portraits. Creative portraits,

in order to find your style and where you go, you try absolutely everything. I've been very lucky to be in a position where I can

try it all with you. I understand that my journey in photography has been very, very privileged in comparison to someone that wants it just as bad as me or is just as interested but just doesn't have those connections as I've been as lucky to have.

I've taken pretty much every opportunity I have had to do any sort of photos in and out of work. I've jumped on absolutely everything and now I have my own sort of style and identity that I know is where I want to go and where I'd want to take it in the future. Yeah. That's really cool. further to what you said about, you know, you think you've had

extra opportunities. I think you can create those opportunities. Like

for me, I I was just a Lone Ranger as well. but what I did was I sort of sought out people who were professionals or had been in the industry a lot longer than me and you know, ended up getting advice from people who have done it and asking, Hey, can I like shadow you on a shoot? Like don't expect to be paid for it. You're not gonna be paid for something that you're learning. You you're on the job, right?

And saying that I have I could speak for an entire hour all about pricing structure on photography. So if anybody would like to me to do a podcast on that, let me know and that can be

can be an an entire episode in itself. I am very passionate about how to price yourself for photography. but yeah, so r just go and sort out those those opportunities. Like join Facebook groups that are like beginner groups. actually

join groups that are not beginner groups and try and find somebody who's willing to take on someone and teach you and you not only learn things, you also make friends for life as well. Because I think photographers often have similar personalities and and you end up making friends that you never thought you would, which is kind of cool too. So yeah. Yeah, you can definitely sort out lots of those sorts of opportunities on your own. There in almost every area area, there's a photography group, social group.

That go out and all photograph the same thing and compare photos and it's a bit nerdy, but you know, if it's what you're into. Yeah. Even if you pick up like one little tip, right? Like it might just be the tiniest thing that somebody else does.

Or, you know, finding friendship in someone else and growing together and learning like I love that. you'll probably find that

A lot more people in your life than you might think want photos of themselves, right? Yes. Because to get them done costs a lot of money.

Rightly so. Yes. And people are willing to take advantage of that while you're not charging. They are. They definitely are. And so you'll find friends and family to practice on and And you're better to make mistakes with friends and family who will be forgiving.

than to make mistakes with strangers and paying clients. Going out there and offering your work for little to no money with strangers is probably not the way to go. I would go as far as to say it's definitely not the way to go. Definitely not, no, I was putting it very nicely. But that's another thing that having you, as much as I could have sought out opportunities, and I was a little bit

Prior to working for you. But I would not have learned things like putting value on my work and how to price I wouldn't have learned those unless I saw it in this setting and I had you to teach me. There's been quite a few times that I've had to look to you at how to price something, and you've definitely taught me that.

It's most important to value your work. Mm-hmm. if you're gonna do something, you either charge it for what it's worth or you don't do it because

that's a disservice to yourself and also to the industry, one that's already, already struggling, you know, with AI and stuff like that.

I'm very proud. I'm so proud. I'm so glad. Yeah. No, that's awesome. Hey, it has been so awesome chatting with you today, Billie. a really cool combination conversation of photography and AI, and then bringing that all together and your hidden talent

that hey, maybe that needs to go on your C V too. that could be a whole new future job is telling human from AI. Well, they say

AI's taking the jobs, maybe the ones it's creating, it's learning to catch it out. I think you've just invented something. Once again, every episode in person, we have invented

something. You've done it here again today. You've invented it. Yep. We've had the barbecue pitch, we've had new words, we've had all sorts of stuff. So yeah. Love it. Love it. Thanks so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. You're more than welcome. It wasn't as scary as I thought.

See, that's what everybody says. and I'm sure we will have you on the podcast again sometime soon. thank you.