If you're in business and you have the ability show people what you want them to Don't tell them That is my favorite tip of the entire podcast series so far. I love it so much. That very first impression that someone has with you is one of those things that's going to stick and it's hard to undo. Today on the Visual Marketing Podcast, I'm so excited to introduce to you my guest, Phil Mershon. Phil Mershon is a fractional director of experience and he is a speaker coach. He's spent over twenty-five years designing experiences for for events for audiences over 5,000 people. Phil has maintained a 95% referral score for over a decade, and he's the author of Unforgettable, the definitive book on experience design. Phil, welcome to the show. It is so good to have you here. Thank you so much for joining me from the other side of the world to me. Hey, it's great to be here and I'm glad we could figure out that window of time when we're both awake. Actually it's not too bad the US to ~ or where you are to to where I am in New Zealand. Right now for me it is the morning. I'm guessing it's kinda late afternoon for you, is that right? Yeah. Yeah, It is. Yeah, you're just a day ahead of me. I can tell you the future, but unfortunately I don't know the lottery sorry. well, that would be killer, wouldn't it? Wouldn't it? Hey, ~ I think it'd be really cool to introduce how we actually met each other. back in 2025, we met each other ~ at Social Media Marketing World in San Diego and we kept in touch over the year, especially more towards the end of the year, coming up to the next conference that I attended again in twenty twenty six.~ you have quite a long history of working in events. Tell me about some of your event work. Yeah, I mean, the one that I'm known for is social media marketing world where you went and where we met and I was, I've been part of all 13 of those and was with social media examiner since 2010, still with them just in a more part-time capacity right now.~ but I've been doing events pretty much since I left college.~ my first job as programming computer. So I wouldn't say I was doing it then, although I did like a little team meeting with that doesn't really count, but starting with the next job. I was leading classes, leading retreats, leading events. did corporate training. I sent teams across the country, including myself, to do little mini events on college campuses throughout the U.S.~ And then I was a pastor for 20 years doing music and preaching ministry. And so I've led lots of events in that capacity. And so it's been the corporate stuff. It's been nonprofit. It's been church. It's a been a lot of different kinds of things and then certainly some volunteer events that I've helped put on too. So in addition to actually putting on the events and all the things that that involves, because you've had time on stages yourself, you're also a pretty experienced speaker and that has given you the skill set to be able to teach others as well. Yeah, I think one of the things that makes me different as a speaker coach is I have, I've spoken hundreds of times on lots of different kinds of stages, up to 5,000 people. I'm not Tony Robbins, but I've done some pretty big stages, but I've also seen from behind the scenes what it looks like for speakers to be great. So I have a perspective as an event organizer that not all speakers have of what does it take to set that person up for success. And so I have kind of both angles and I'm being trained as a preacher. That's actually one of the core things they teach you in grad school is how to be a good speaker. because in college, I wasn't college. I hated speaking in public. So it's been quite a change. That's so interesting to hear that you've gone from hating speaking to literally being on stages and teaching people how to be on stages. Quite the contrast. Yeah, I literally vowed in a public speaking class in college that I was never going to stand on stage again. Like it was that miserable of an experience for me. Wow. Cause I, I tried to do a persuasive speech and at the end of it, when I went into the conclusion, I could not remember for the life of me, what I had practiced. I didn't write it down. I just practiced it, but I froze and I didn't know the trick yet to go back to last thing you remembered. and try to get there again. And so instead I just went, sat down at my desk and I buried my head in shame. And then that moment said, there's no way I'm ever doing that again. I got convinced three or four years later to do it again.~ but it was, it was, it took some convincing for sure. once I found something I was passionate about talking about, then things changed. And so. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I have a little trick too. ~ let's swap tricks. My little trick, because I I actually sing on stage with large barbershop choruses.~ and something someone taught me, I would have probably been ten years old on a in a choir on stage as a kid in primary school or elementary school as you call it. And I've always used this trick and it works not only on stage, but also in business senses, if you're in a meeting or even if I'm doing a podcast like this, if I'm a bit nervous or I just, yeah, forgotten what I'm gonna say, is wiggle your toes. Have you tried that one? Yes. Yeah. Not when I'm speaking as much as if I feel like my legs are going to freeze up.~ that's what we were taught in choir. Like if you're, you know, if your legs are starting to get frozen, just wiggle your toes a little bit and that'll relax your body. I haven't used it so much to trigger my memory. That's interesting. I think I don't know if it's like just a psychological thing that it takes away your nerves because suddenly your brain thinks about something else. But I actually gave that advice to somebody else I met at social media marketing world this year. We were just in a break, in one of the breaks that you ~ you know, a space that you had created as part of your customer experience. And we were sitting down having a chat and~ this person was talking to me about how they get quite nervous in meetings. And I gave them that piece of advice. And actually last week we caught up on a call and they said to me, Hey, I gave your trick a go. And I said, Did it work? And they said, Yep, it definitely did. I got some confidence. I was I knew what I was talking about anyway. I just had frozen and got scared and it worked. So it's pretty cool to give that a go, even like a business sense. But I do digress from the purpose of what we're talking about. I do have a bit of a habit of doing that, but that's okay. ~ the episode previous to you, if anybody is wanting to go back and have a listen, there is a substantial conversation about cats. So ~ you will see see the digression that we head on.~ what I would love to ~ ask you about though is I happen to have a copy of your book, which you very, very kindly gifted me this year ~ at the conference and it has been really such a wonderful read.~ what I would love to understand though is you've developed this whole framework of of customer experience and in teaching people how to to do that and the recipe as such. What actually prompted you to write that down and s and give that away to people? Well, unlike the Italian mother, grandmother who wants to keep her pasta recipe a secret. I thought, well, if people keep saying the events I'm producing are highly memorable, the best that they've ever been to. I wanted to figure out what is it that I'm doing and then try to help the teams that I'm working with be able to reproduce what I'm doing. And then in the process of that teach others. So it was for me partially trying to study what am I doing? But then it's the document that I love to write. And I do a lot of thinking through writing. And so it really was that. when I first started, I started writing in 2017. I thought it was going to be a very different book. I just knew I wanted to write a book. And I had this idea, and it morphed with time. By the time the pandemic hit in 2020, I had a concept, and it totally changed because I put the book on the shelf for 18 months. because no one wanted a book about events in 2020 or 21. So by the time I came out, I rewrote the whole outline and came up with a different concept that I'm way happier with than what I was going to write. That's absolutely fascinating. What a really cool story. And ~ what I really loved about what you just said at the beginning of that was ~ how you actually use the whole concept of writing something down as part of your own process of actually working out what was in your mind and putting that onto paper. And that's that's something I certainly like to do as well. I'm a real systems kind of a person and I know a lot of business owners who are people I deal with regularly are. or people who perhaps maybe work in a marketing role within a business or something along those lines. did you really find that writing it down did make quite a big difference to the way that you actually processed it? So I'd say it was a combination of clarifying things that I was already but I also did research to discover things, you know, like why does that happen? Why is it that this kinds of thing is so memorable at an event or in life? And so I went to try to do the research. What does the research show? I came up with the concept of using baking bread as one of my core metaphors in the book. So I went and interviewed. three or four bakers to understand the process.~ These are master bakers, people who teach others, people who bake bread for lots of different clients to understand their and their thought process about how they make specific kinds of bread. Because that's what my theory was, that you could teach anyone to bake a loaf of bread, but if you want to make a very special artisan loaf of bread, then you've got to have the right skill, the right recipe. the right oven, all those things. so same thing with events. So I went and studied because I didn't know very much about baking bread. I'd baked bread before, but I never really understood beyond like a 15 year old under the care of his mom and grandma. So. You talk about how people, you know, really ~ connect with feelings more than facts. And I think that's that it comes into that bread recipe baking analogy of like, hey, what is the feeling when you eat a piece of beautifully baked sourdough that you know someone has taken probably forty eight hours to produce or even longer sometimes? And I think that's the same in an event in a business is actually having a positive experience. in a business sense for people's customers, they are going to remember how they felt about it. And how how do you how do you explain that to people? Yes. Like how do you communicate that? Well, one of the ways is put yourself in their shoes, you know, go to places. And let's keep this in business since I know most of your audience is not in the events world. So when someone comes to your business for the first time, let's say you have a store or yesterday I went to a doctor's office for the very first time. This is a great example because they made a strong impression. ~ I went in, it's clean, you know, it's a normal storefront, nothing stands out about it, but I went in and was immediately greeted by a receptionist that made me feel like I was in the right place. There was already someone in front of me, so I had to wait my turn. But once I was there, I had her full attention. But what made that experience different than any doctor's office, at least that I've ever been to, is once we were done processing the paperwork, she came out from behind the desk and she said, let me give you a quick tour. And it's a small office. Like I could see pretty much the whole place. But she walked me down the entire ~ you know, building all like six or seven rooms said this is what's going to happen here. Here's where we have our kids area. Here's where we do this. This is where you're going to get your x-rays done. And this is where we're going to start. Like just giving me a very personal tour. like, wow, this is this is high touch. I'm not going to forget that. And then she kept coming back throughout the visit ~ and checking in on me and explaining what was happening. It's like that explanation and then. The third thing she did was actually the first thing she did is I asked, Hey, where's the bathroom while I was waiting? And she said, ~ well, it's kind of confusing. Let me show you. Which by the way, that's one of the things I teach. If you're in business and you have the ability show people what you want them to Don't tell them that makes a way bigger impression. And that's, those are the kinds of things that I teach people that people will remember. It's the human touch. Like this office building was not spectacular. You know, it didn't have monets on the wall. didn't have all these high touch kinds of things, but it did have that human experience. They humanized it in a way that I want to go back, even though it's farther away and more expensive than someone else I might go to. That experience I had will make me go back. Absolutely. And that's the kind of ~ experience that creates loyalty as well, right? Like you said, you're going to go back. You're going to ~ go and tell your friends as well, whether they need that service or not. You've just gone and told the world right now on this podcast. But I mean, also if you're speaking to a friend who maybe is looking for ~ you a similar type of professional,~ that's an experience you are absolutely going to talk about. You'll probably also if you're on ~ I know for me, if I'm on a Facebook group that you know, I is looking for a recommendation of something that I've I will always ensure I'm the first to talk about a positive experience I've had. I think we're also often too fast or too quick just just talk about the negative stuff and not talk about the good stuff. But when it's been spectacular, when it's been unforgettable, that is when it makes the difference, Yes. right? one of the frameworks that's in the book that I teach is how do you get something to be unforgettable? And there's three M's. You want it to be memorable. Meaningful and momentous. And what I mean by those is memorable means it's something that's going to stand out. It might be shocking. It might be unusual. It might tie into all five of your senses because the fastest way to memory is to be multi-sensory.~ so there's going to be something like an unusual combination of things today. The Savannah bananas are really popular here in the States. And I think they're great globally gaining speed. They bring things together in their games that don't look like they belong. But when they bring them together, it's all of a sudden fun. Like who's ever seen, you know, tricycle races at a baseball game. Well, they do it. Who's ever had a cowboy rodeo cowboy lassoing ~ base runners, they do it. So memorable is something that's going to stick is sticky. Um, it's going to stick in their brain. Meaningful means it's relevant. Like, so, you know, this was a chiropractor's office. They know people are coming in in pain. So they've got seating there. That's going to be comfortable. They've got water because they know you need to be hydrating. You know, they've got all the, the, all the different ointments that you need. they're there. They know what people are going to need. When they arrive, they know that it needs to be a pleasant smell because it's not fun to go have your back cracked. You don't really like going to do that, at least when you're in pain. So you're thinking about who is this person? What is it like? What's the time and place? What's going to be a relevant message? How do I speak to them in language that they're going to pay attention to? And then the last one is paying attention to those moments. And so. That very first impression that someone has with you is one of those things that's going to stick and it's hard to undo. So I've been to way more doctors offices where that first impression is the receptionist who's at the desk who looks like,~ you know, she doesn't have time for me. Like she can't wait for her coffee break or her lunch break or to get out of there. And I'm an annoyance and I'm not the only one who's experienced this. And so, ~ that's going to stick with me. It's like, I don't want to go back to that doctor's office, not because the doctor's not great because usually the doctors are great.~ it's the person at the front door who gave me a bad taste for what this place is going to be like. And so that first impression is one of those moments that you care about. One of the things I teach Liz is that your first impression is not when they get to the door.~ and your door could be a website. The door could be that first call they have with you. The door could be a physical. place. You know, there's a lot of different kinds of doors, but it's actually the first time they find out about you. They found your website. They saw you on social media. They did place that first call. Maybe that's what it was. The very first encounter. You don't know when someone's first impression with you will be. So you need to be paying attention to that entire customer journey, not assuming it's that first time they opened the door and walk in. And when I'm talking to local retail stores, That first impression actually does start out on the street. If they're driving into a parking lot or doing curbside parking, the front of your store is sending a message. And I've seen way too many stores that don't actually put any effort into that. And I get it, they may not own the building, but there are things you can do that is sending a message. This is what this experience is going to be like. And if that feels negative, you have to overcome that. It's way easier to make a great first impression than it is to overcome a bad first impression. I completely understand exactly what you're saying. we deal with a lot of customers here who are small businesses, small family run businesses, often owner operated, and a huge amount of their business is word of mouth and referral. And it's actually often people they know or people they've been introduced to by a friend. And ~ you know, it's the it's the concept of almost like the barbecue pitch. Like you actually like you're you're sit you're standing around a grill you could be at a a a a party with, you know, with some friends, like it could be your kids' friends, parents that you're having a chat with. It could be anybody. And that actually comes through to actually understanding brand and the way that you communicate your brand. Because you are walking your brand at any point in time, whether it be your shopfront, your website, your receptionist. It could be you're at the grocery store. Like y you're literally your brand everywhere you go. So as you say, that first impression is absolutely important. in our office we actually have a kitchen, a full kitchen. So ~ going back to the senses that you talked about, we will back cheese scones. And and so people will come up for their first meeting and they'll come up the the stairs and they'll smell coffee and cheese scones. and ~ f like that's an that's such a big deal because suddenly they feel welcomed and like it's a homely environment and that's the feel that we want to give. We're not like super duper corporate.~ and that that is our brand coming across from a smell, from a feeling as you walk in the door. For some people obviously they can't do that. They might not have a storefront. They might be working from home or remotely. If somebody is working on a smaller capacity, do you have any advice on how they can make that first impression just perfect? Yeah, I think there's a variety of things. If let's say your first impression is this, you're showing up on a zoom call or some kind of call. The way that you show up makes a huge difference. I've been on like you probably thousands of these calls and there's maybe two people that I remember the way that they showed up on these calls. It stopped me. These people, when they turn the camera on, they're sitting there, they are fully present, they're dressed to the hilt and they are ready 100 % for that call. So you can make an impression just by how ready you are for your client when they show up. Are you on time? Get there early, be ready for the meeting, pay attention. Now here's where you can go above and beyond. Little hard to do from New Zealand to the States, but it can be done. Send a gift. Send something to them that is a thank you for them. There's a friend of ours who's down in Australia who she has sent me a gift twice for each time that I've been on a podcast. Paying for the air mail all the way from Tasmania to the States for a box of chocolates, which I could have gone and bought the chocolates for probably less than the airfare, but it was the it was the touch. It was personalized. There was a note in there. It stood out. We don't get mail. So there's things that you can do even if you're remote that can cause you to stand out. Some people will send a little gift. I have a company here in the video world who was bidding on a project. And they sent me an iPad to with their quote on it. They didn't just send me a PDF. They didn't send me a PowerPoint deck. They sent me an iPad with a full video presentation. Completely blew me away. I didn't hire them. Wow, that's amazing. I didn't hire them for different reasons. The pricing wasn't right, but that made a huge impression. If they were willing to go that far, what else are they willing to do? So think outside the box. I think to your point, can actually evoke smells by the things that you put on your camera or the things that you send, the way that you talk about things. Like bring your brand to life in the way that you talk, the words that you choose. If you've got a color scheme, let that be present in what you do so that you can use every trigger that's possible for them to remember you in that conversation. you're wearing a yellow jacket. And if that's your brand, which I don't know if it is you wearing yellow all the time, I'm going to start thinking of Liz, the yellow lady or something, you know, and every time I see that I'm going to think Liz. So yeah, those are, those are some words. There's lots of things you can do. I'll tell you why I'm wearing yellow. we h do a Christmas do every year, and ~ what we did last year was I ~ h hosted a colour party. So all of our staff sat sat down, we went to a ~ a nice a hotel and had a private room, private suite there, and we had a woman come in by the name of Abby Button. She is absolutely amazing if anybody in Christchurch is looking to have their colours done. And yeah, we all had our colours done. And I ~ need to wear warm tones and this is one of my colours. So it was pretty helpful ~ going into being on camera this year an awful lot,~ knowing what colours to wear. So ~ hopefully I'm actually not supposed to wear black, but I think I get o I'm allowed to get away with it if I've got something else on and I should wear high contrast. So if anybody is watching this instead of listening to this,~ if you're only listening, jump on YouTube. We're on YouTube as well. You can see the colour that I'm wearing and tell me if you think my my skin tone looks okay. I think you look great too, Phil. the color that was recommended to me by my my I don't know what you call them the style guides style stylist who is chat GPT of course So good. Well I re I reckon I don't know, I I reckon humans are still pretty good at that job. And I'm a big fan of AI, but yeah, I I you do look great. No, no, just find the color. The color choice was one that came from that, but I, I go all over the place, but we digress. Yeah, yeah. We do. But actually speaking about stuff,~ something you do do talk about is the importance of choosing the right people essentially to represent you, which really flows on from our previous conversation and and really walking and talking your brand and and everything that's all of the senses, not just being visible, but actually every single sense. how do you find the right people that fit in with your culture? Yeah, there's a few things. It's funny because I'm working with the company right now on this very same problem. They've had people that looked good on paper but weren't a culture fit. And so they were too aggressive in their sales. They were all about the sale. This is for a music business. So they were, you know, they need people that focus on sales. Of course, that's why they're in business, but they need repeat sales. They need people who are going to refer them to their friends because music is a lifelong investment. You're continually upgrading instruments and getting them repaired and referring friends. And so you don't want it to be out about one time. So they were thinking about, what is our culture? You know, what kind of experience do we want people creating? Is this more of a family feel? Is this more of a transactional feel? Is this corporate? So part of it is documenting and articulating for What is the culture we're trying to create? What kinds of people then can help create that? Because that's going to help you identify them when when they apply, when you find them. One of the things I recommend is find people that have already done business with you, volunteered with you, worked for you who emulate, embody those characteristics and say, who do you know? ~ This is one of those places that AI could be really helpful is to talk through with you. Why do I like Liz when she works for me? You know, it's to be able to get a lot of those words out. so that then you are able to reproduce that and create the right kinds of Now, depending on your business, you may have to go through more traditional recruiting methods. And that's where it's super important that you've been able to describe what you're looking for in the right way and know how to recognize it. One of the things that I do that I think is smart in a world of AI is make sure you get people to get on camera and send you a video. very early in the process, because that's going to give you a very good sense of who they are. And do it in a way that they can't duplicate it through an AI like if they're that smart, that they can create AI videos.~ But it is not really them. You don't want that you need them to give you some authentic stories that's going to show you if this is a customer service person, you want to see that smile, you want to see the way they embody what they talk about, like this music stores, you know, my recommendation is that They get them to talk about an instrument that they love. Why do they love this instrument? Why do they love music? Like give them a softball question because you're not looking as much for the answer as how they answer it. Yes, you need to know that they know their stuff, but do they embody your culture? If you care about that, then you need to be able to see it. So figure out what are those three or four things are absolutely essential and then document that and find out what are the best ways to draw that out. I think videos are one of them. Even before you ever get on a video call, like in your screening process, send me your resume, cover letter and a video that does this. And that way you can they're going to stand out like AI can help you sort through all the resumes and cause someone to show show up. But then you have to look at the videos and decide do I like this person? Could I imagine doing business with them? You know, that's a that's a starting place. It's not going to get you the right person. have to do the whole process, of course. Of course. I absolutely love that concept. And it's actually not something I had ever thought of, strangely enough, given the industry that I'm in. I just hadn't thought about actually applying that to a recruitment process. And especially in this day and age where we as business owners or marketers, we actually expect our staff when we put a phone in their face and say, Hey, I need to film a TikTok or I need to film a reel for Instagram or Facebook or wherever you're putting it or something for my website. Like you we actually~ we expect people to say yes. And and people are really scared of it and nervous. But here's the thing, like it's at the point now with business that if you're not showing up visually on any of social the social platforms or even on your website, if you're if you're still doing this whole faceless that blows my mind, that's a whole other podcast episode. I'm actually doing one on that. I it it just doesn't cut through because I've always said at the end of the day, people are doing business with people. No matter what it is that you are buying and selling, it is still two people. And if your staff are not able to maybe show up on camera, then that's a s a serious concern. And and if you are somebody who is a staff member and this is making you really nervous. All I can do is encourage you to just give it a go. I don't find this natural. ~ there are plenty of bloopers, I'm used to being behind a camera, Hahaha. not in front of a camera. This is absolutely terrifying for me. Truly it is. But I'm getting there. This is going to be episode this is episode eight. And every single time I've learned something and got better. So and and that's the same about people s what standing on a stage, people having a conversation with a customer, the receptionist at the chiropractor's office. It's just about getting confidence, right? And and building that skill set. And you don't have to be perfect right away. Yeah, I remember in, uh, I think it was 2018. I fell and broke my wrist, my left wrist. And so I was not able to type for six weeks because I had a cast on. And so that's when I started learning how to do video. You know, I, I really didn't have a choice because I, I don't type very well with one hand and you know, I figured out that if I'm to get my message across and get any work done, then I better figure out how to do this video thing. So I started sending people one minute videos before that was the thing. And, and my boss, you know, Mike Stelzner, he said, Phil, you're good at that. You should keep doing that. It, makes your, your messages more human. Like the reports that I did it's just more human when you talk as opposed to when you write it and make it sound all, you know, official or whatever. So there probably are jobs that I wouldn't require that video. Like I can imagine the accountant that we ended up hiring. She would have never applied. If we would have required a video as part of the application, now getting her on a video call to talk about the job, that's a different thing. But that that role probably I wouldn't have required it. But if it's anyone that has a public facing role and really you want to get a sense of what are they going to like to work with. But I think you can do that at the next level of interview. You don't have to do that as a first screen. I would actually argue the opposite. I reckon the accountant should do a video. Okay. Here's why. That accountant is going to be dealing with all sorts Okay. Okay. of different people in their job. Good point. And they need to have that experience, right? They need to be comfortable that somebody is walking in, you know, maybe they're going through a marriage breakup. Maybe they're starting a business. Maybe they are buying their first home. Maybe they're selling their parents' home and their their parents have have just moved into a retirement village. And All of those situations are completely different and the people at the other side of that have different needs. They're going through different emotional and they need to have the confidence to be able to show up and be human and be authentic and ~ kind and respectful in those situations. And I reckon actually seeing a video of somebody, you would get that straight away, whether they have the ability to be authentically respectful and human. You would. And just for those who are still reluctant here, literally all you're asking someone to do is grab their phone. They don't need high tech cameras. You don't want high tech cameras. You're just creating a video like you're going to post it on TikTok or Instagram or send it to a family member. This is just to get to know you. The question is going to be such a softball. You know, tell me about your favorite. whatever product, why do you like, you paint? I don't know, whatever it is that's your business that's, you know, easy for them to answer, but gives you a sense of who they are is really all you're after. And it also gives you a sense of culture fit, which is where we were s talking about to begin with, Yes. Yes. because you how on earth can you tell a culture fit by a a C V that is sent to you via email? Sure, they can make it look pretty, they can go into Canva and put pretty colours in a picture and all that kind of stuff, but I have no idea who they are as a person.~ and I I think that's absolutely brilliant. That is my favorite tip of the entire podcast series so far. I love it so much. It's great. Well, and I'm looking at a possible contract where they want me to talk about their values. Well, it'd be really easy for me to take those values and I probably will still do this, but to take those values, stick them into Claude, because that's where I'm doing most of my work today and say, okay, based on everything that you know about me and these values of this company, where are the things that I should talk about? that I should emphasize when I have a conversation with this potential to know if there's a fit. So I can do that, but it'd be so easy for me to use that to an excess and make me look way better at those things than I actually am. And that's the stuff you've got to sniff out. And so I think stories are another key part of that. You can't fake stories. And so if you can get people telling stories, giving you videos, you're going to find people and that's really what you're trying to do in the business. By the way, you're trying to create a story that they're going to talk about I will talk about that chiropractors office because of the story that lady I know her name is Teresa because she created that story. Exactly. I don't remember everyone's name. In fact, I remember very few receptionist name in businesses. In fact, there's a PT that I went to for a year and a half. I still can't remember the lady's name at the front desk. So, you know, and I've saw her probably a hundred times in a year and a half. And she probably did an okay That's not very good. job, right? Like there was nothing bad about what she did. There was just nothing memorable. She was not unforgettable. She had a colleague that was unforgettable. I just didn't have enough time to get to know who she was to get to know her name. But yeah, was night and day. That's so fascinating. Yeah, I love that. And I also love that you touched on storytelling as well.~ is that something that you work with people on as well about really getting stories across and and that being part of the way they communicate with people and connecting? Yes, when I'm coaching speakers, we are focused on how do you bring story into a speech? Because so often people want to just give the facts and that's good. But if we're to get that emotional connection that causes someone to actually a change, which that's what it is, because people can get facts on the internet in seconds right now, right? Just type the question and you'll have answers and They're getting better and better and better at being factually correct. So if I want facts, I don't go to a session. I go to be inspired. go to experience something that I can't experience sitting in front of a computer screen or reading a book. So stories are one of those differentiators. It's where I can tell my stories, which we've told several of those on this call here today. Those make me more real. They make the subject matter seem a bit more pertinent no matter what you're in. Cause like, I've experienced that before too.~ he's a speaker now and he didn't ever want to be a speaker when he was in~ That's intriguing. Maybe I can overcome that fear as well. And that's why I tell my stories because it can help someone realize,~ it's possible to change. Yeah, absolutely. And I I think the fact that you said that the whole purpose of this is trying to evoke an emotion in somebody. And that's essentially what we're trying to do in business too, is we're trying to create an emotion which then makes them feel compelled to buy. In reality, that's the goal, right? And whether that be buy as in spend money, buy as in sit down on the seat and watch the the event, watch the speaker, whether that be then be a referrer for the chiropractor's office and tell somebody else. It's all about converting from an emotion into an action. Yeah, and ideally you're not just converting to a transaction, but it's into a relationship. So yeah, there's money involved. There's some kind of exchange involved because if you're a nonprofit, it's not money. Um, but there's some value exchange that's taking place that needs to be there, but you want it to be ongoing. Like you said, I want people coming back to an event that I create. So if they had a great experience, they're more likely to come back, which is one measure of success. They're more likely to tell their friends. They're more likely to have a high satisfaction rate and tell other people about it from that standpoint. And so those expand the brand. They also deepen the relationship. If I value people that have been doing business with me, now I've got a relationship with them. It's not just a one time, you know, transaction. Then we've we've changed it into something else. And you do that with people you know, like and trust that old saying. But when something has been stands out, something's been truly memorable, something's been truly unforgettable, the conversation that you had, then you're going to go back to that person. Like that started with you and me because you said yes to bringing your camera to the event before you even knew me in 2025. So we started a conversation before we ever actually met in person. I forgot about that. That's right. Yeah. We didn't get to know each other well, Yeah. but that's created the foundation for us to then enter a relationship where we were talking almost every week for about six months about our businesses, Yeah. right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's ~ it's been really cool to connect with somebody who otherwise, absolutely, like you said, we wouldn't have had any reason to connect and and just those opportunities of of once again like meeting people in ~ who knows what kind of circumstances. if somebody's listening or they're watching and they felt a little bit but you know, maybe they thought they were doing really well with their their customer service, but they could improve in a couple of areas. Do you have one piece of advice on where they should start? If they want to try something new tomorrow, what's the first thing they should try? So I'd do a quick inventory as you've been listening to us talk today and say, what's one place that we know we have some opportunities to improve? You can't change everything. So maybe it's that first impression. Maybe it's your follow-up after the first time you have a meeting with someone. Maybe it's what is it that they're experiencing? Maybe you don't know, like what does that brand experience look like? That might be too complicated, but you could find something in that first impression experience that you can do that would set you apart. Something that's just easy, inexpensive, that you could start experimenting with. And I think that's really important, Liz, is have an experimental mindset. You don't have to change something and do it forever. Try those videos in the next round of resumes that you accept and see if it If it doesn't, make some tweaks to it or decide that's really not for you. Maybe you are baking bread in your store and when people walk in, they're smelling that. Maybe there is some kind of fragrance that you're using. Maybe you are asking your front staff to give tours. Maybe you're telling them, never point to the bathroom. I want you to always show. Show them the way. Like just something that's really simple and easy. for people to do and see what kind of impact it has. You don't have to change everything.~ We have talked about a lot of things, but just like look at one place that you intuitively know, or maybe your customers have already told you, you've probably have feedback. I know you've got an intuitive sense that there's a place in your business that it could improve. Doesn't have to be the biggest problem.~ Probably shouldn't be the smallest problem, but something that you could go do something with tomorrow. And then use your imagination, say what's something we could do that would make this more memorable, more meaningful, more momentous? Something that's going to stand out, stick in their brain. And again, you don't have to spend a fortune. It just needs to be something that's thoughtful and noticeable. I think that is absolutely sound advice, Phil. And I just want to thank you so much for your time today. I have certainly learned a lot as well. And I'm going to be thinking about what else we can be doing here. So thanks once again for all of your advice. All right. It's been fantastic to speak with you. So Liz, thank you for the conversation. And I wanna give you what I call my signature sign off as a gift to you and your guests. And what that looks like is I'm gonna ask you for three words that stand out from our conversation, things that you're gonna remember later on. And then I'm gonna play back on saxophone my response to those three words. so give me three words that stand out. Okay, so my three words are connection, intention, and try. Connection, intention, and try, and I'm gonna add mine. Cheese scones. I know that's two words, but Yeah, and a slightly different accent on the way we say it. You know, more like your biscuits. I know. I know. Yeah, no, I know. We say it scone, you say it scone, whatever. All right. So let's let me I should have written those down as you went. forgotten because I can't remember how you pronounce the word scone and scone or whatever. All right. Connection, intention, and try. And try. All right. And what color is your brand?~ it's like a bronze, like a copper, copper colour. Okay. And how are you feeling right now? a little cold 'cause it's winter and it's maybe three degrees right now. Little cold. So this is gonna warm you up like a nice scone. If I can say it the way you do, I I will not be able to say it the way you do. It's okay. All right. Saxophone playing Saxophone playing Thanks so much for joining the Visual Marketing Podcast, brought to you by CI Marketing. I'm your host Liz, and I can't wait to share more episodes with you.