Welcome to the visual marketing podcast brought to you by CI Marketing, where we explore how to show up consistently, be more visible, and connect with the right people through your marketing. I'm your host, Liz. Welcome to today's episode of the Visual Marketing Podcast. Today, I have one of our in-house staff here, our general manager of Cirrus International, which is one of my other businesses. You're going to be listening to Jahan Pitcorn today, and he's going to tell you all about what we do at Cirrus International and how he came across being in a completely different industry to what he Jahan, welcome to the podcast. Thanks. Nice to be here. give us bit of an introduction around who you are and what you do. I'm the general manager at Cirrus. I basically like do all of we don't really have a set role to be honest. Like so I do lots of stuff. ~ between orders, talking to people, solving problems, stock. Yeah. There's a long list of stuff that I've probably forgotten as well. So just for those who don't know, Cirrus International is ~ our product business. We have two businesses we run here from this particular building. we import components for lifts or elevators for those on the other side of the world. And we sell those around New Zealand. They are third party high quality components.~ Suppliers are worldwide based. We get a lot in from Australia and also all over the world. And ~ that is a business that my dad actually started back in 2001.~ It is a long time ago. I would do the maths, but that's a lot of maths for a... Yeah. years. 25 years. Holy moly. We probably should have celebrated that. Yeah. Whoops. Yay, 25 years. ~ Yeah, back at the end of 2018, towards the end, unfortunately, my dad ~ ended up with cancer and ~ sort of needed quite a bit of extra help sort of part way through the year and ~ you and I both jumped in and we were both helping out as much as we could and then he sadly passed away in November 2018. So ~ I decided to take over the business and learn a whole new industry and it came to a point pretty soon after where I realised and you also realised that I wasn't capable of doing this on my own. And you very kindly stepped in to come and give me a hand and that role has grown over the time. What was that like for you going from what you were doing into a role that was brand new? I guess coming from IT very different.~ Yeah. Lots of different things that I hadn't really done before, so I guess it was just a whole bunch of learning and new things and discovering. And then I guess the whole technical world of everything that was in your dad's head that he didn't tell anybody. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess that was probably the most complicated part is the unknown stuff that wasn't passed over or handed down and we basically just had to go and learn and discover and I guess fundamentally make mistakes until we got the right Yeah, absolutely. And we had to learn pretty quickly not to be afraid of making mistakes and surround ourselves with good people. yeah. It was an interesting learning curve. It certainly was You came from a role where you were a software developer, correct me if I have the terminology wrong,~ and you were in a role where you actually weren't interacting with at all in your previous job. You were interacting with other people, but it was more people on your team, whether that be in your own office or virtually with people who were in offices elsewhere. How was that moving from not having having a big customer interaction to going to a role where you're suddenly dealing with lots of different people, suppliers, customers, all sorts. I guess that's that's an interesting fact because in the business that we were in there was customers per se, but they weren't direct customers, they're customers within your business. And so I wouldn't really say that you don't ever have no customer inter integration or interaction because in a big business like your colleagues are your customers Yeah, interesting. ~ Just for those who don't know exactly what you used to do, can you tell us a little bit about just an overview of the type of software development that you were doing? Yeah, so was developing in Java as a senior front-end engineer. So basically why I find this job interesting is because everything that I did was user interaction Whether you're actually talking to somebody or thinking about what they're I guess it's in software it's kind of the same thing. And so doing that, you still have kind of a lot of interaction with how customers would work rather than talking to them directly and how they would use something. So yeah, all front end stuff's all about like user interaction and how a person would use it. So say you're going onto a website, how that website would work if you were using it like Facebook or your phone and how it works. So yeah, it's software is very complex and there's so many different layers to it that probably people don't understand how much effort or time or thought goes into something to make it scroll. Do you think people just think that you're a geek or a nerd? Probably. Yeah, but I guess like a lot of people are logic based and some people aren't and logic based thinkers I guess do those kind of geeky jobs because you need some logic for it to work where if you weren't that geeky per se, then perhaps not. I'm here for the geeks and the nerds. I honestly, I think they run the world and I think they run everything we do. And without them, I don't think we would be doing as well as we are. So maybe perhaps I'm a little biased because I'm a little bit geeky myself too. Yeah. I guess geekiness can go into many layers though, because like it cannot just I don't think it's just like a software thing. It's more of a mentality thing than a what specifically you're doing. Cause Yeah. like, I guess working on like your hobbies or stuff, like you'd have a similar approach than say a non geek. So yeah, limiting it to software IT is probably a bit bit dramatic probably it's where the geeks excel, so that's where people see it. Yeah. So I guess what we're really talking about is actually a technical skill. Yeah. Yeah. A lot more technical, a lot more if you don't know what it is, like you'll go and learn about it. Yeah. And they're probably a geek is more driven to know like why that thing's happening rather than w what exactly it is. Yeah, that's a really interesting perspective. haven't thought of it that way. But yes, it's not a derogatory term at all, actually. It's actually, I think it's a compliment. Yeah, unless somebody passes off and goes, like, there again, give it to them, like then maybe it's partly That's just annoying, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like, the printer's not working. Give it to the software geek. Yeah, give like when your guy's Mac breaks down you try to bring it to me, I'm Like, nah Not a Mac guy, right? The only non-Mac person in our office. Like like they make a great phone, but their laptops are d sorry. Yeah. No. You're not even sorry. Okay. So coming from that perspective, you didn't find the whole interacting with customers, the hardest part of moving roles. Was it anything that you did find like different, tricky? What was the hardest part of moving? Pretty much making a decision overnight in a way and going, you know what, I'm all in with this whole different industry. at that stage it was like, you know, this is like the best decision, even though it might be like scary or big or different. So there was that factor on top of it. And then just thinking like why not like do something different, take a chance. I guess the hard thing was just getting to be a senior developer and being like part of a bigger team and That took a while to get to and then just I don't know, it was like half a year after that I kind of threw it in. So Yeah. Yeah. It was a big call. Yeah. Well, I appreciated it. And I still do, of course. I mean, this is going back a bit of time now. This is what? Eight years ago, almost to the day, actually. It Getting close. is getting close. Yeah. So bring this forward to today.~ What do you enjoy the most about what you do? I would say like I like difference in a day, so my job pretty much is never the same the whole time. And I guess that's the thing I like about it is like I've always got like something else to move on to, some other thing. It's not like repetitive. I guess the repetitiveness would probably like kill me. Yeah, because you're quite a driven person. Yeah, driven and I like to like learn new stuff, so like during my days I'll have some other challenge of some other thing that if I don't know to learn and geek out about, I guess you'd say. I feel a theme coming on. think that might be the title of this show. Tied back to that. Yeah. Love it. Okay. So you've had a few, mentioned the word challenge. We've had some, we've had many a challenge over the years. We've had, you know, COVID lockdown. We've had all sorts of things go on. One of the first challenges that Jo and I both came across when we got into this back in, it was probably early 2019 maybe, no was the end of 2018 actually that this happened, I remember. The business was actually in the middle of quite a large project, we came into it part way through my dad had passed away And we got into it and really didn't know what we were doing at all. The job was part way through he was at the stage of just like g the the customer was finalising all the quotes and starting to order product. And it was like this big job that we didn't know about that I guess kind of really helped us out at the beginning. It was actually, I believe to this day, the largest lift job in New Zealand that's ever happened. I had to try and sift back through emails and text messages and things to try and find communications. But a really big thing for me that helped was actually reaching out to ~ customers and suppliers and other support people that my dad had in this industry. Bear in mind, my dad was a legend in this industry. His, he goes back years and years and years, and to this day, people still know his name and they always to me, my gosh, are you Laurie Hogg's daughter, like, you know, he was a legend. He was so well known, even people who never met him, still talk about him. ~ you know, his way of doing business was very much relationship building. And that was done authentically. That wasn't done on purpose as a sales technique. was just genuine, good, like business sense, you know, just actually having, he enjoyed talking to people. So I know for me, I actually had to ~ get brave and get on the phone with people and reach out and be like, hey, we're a little bit stuck here. Can you give us a hand? Like, what do you know about this? Do you remember any of the things that you had to do? guess at the start of that was was just going and contacting the lead manager of that section And then visited him and had some chats and kind of got to the bottom of where everything was. And then from there it was pretty we got the first couple job first couple of lifts done and then from there was pretty good sailing. It was also us trying to prove to these guys that we actually could continue to run the business in the way that they expected. We could still supply what they needed. We could still have the service that they needed, still be on the end of the phone if they needed a hand, everything would be available. There were no cashflow issues, all of that stuff. So we took on a pretty big thing back then when you actually say it out loud. I guess lucky for you, my I guess, style or personality is probably really similar to your dad. I think so. And so I feel like I was kind of on the same page when I started with them and they probably I don't know if they associated that for having worked with them but never did. So yeah, that that's an interesting like analogy on the situation, but I feel like apart from being a bit more geeky than your dad, your dad was probably a bit more electronical and knowing more about that Yeah, he has an electrical engineering background for sure. Yeah, I guess that's the difference. Main difference between us is like the electrical knowledge rather than like the software knowledge. And so I guess at a stage like a lot of the stuff that he was buying and selling was more electrical and now as a company we're more software based and how is stuff set up and configured. So it's kind of gone into my ballpark a bit more than what it was. It has. want to touch on two things. The first thing being customer service and the way that we actually run the business and what's important to us. all stems from what my dad taught me in the early days and growing up as well as just the importance of building those relationships with people. And I recall popping into the office as a kid and having, well, not a kid, a teenager, having- Big kid? Yeah, big kid. And hearing- having conversations with people ~ over the phone that were completely unrelated to work whatsoever. He probably spent more time not talking about work. Gossiping. Gossiping to his co- He was a massive gossip. Yeah. ~ But that actually, if you think about it, is a really cool way of building a business and building trust. Is that something that you've taken on as well? I think I did that naturally. I just that that's kind of my style as well. So I believe if you'd ask a customer they'd probably say like I was easy to get along with in that respect because like that's how I would approach the situation as well. Yeah. yeah. So Yeah, I think it goes a long way in terms of people trusting us, people wanting the business to have appeared to continue on and not have that, you know, gap of, my gosh, Laurie's gone, what's happening now? So I think we navigated that pretty well. I guess it's our more our brand identity of how we're different and why we're good and why we do what we do is just that like personal difference. Yeah. Yeah. That and our products are good, so like it's a combination of just like a good solid place to deal with. would actually say it's really going back to basics, isn't it? It's personal connection, it's good quality service, it's being available, it's selling a good product, all of those things, right? Yeah, I mean at the end of the day, like you can try and go out to all the salespeople and push a product on but my day is like revolved around the service people with something broken. So it's n Let's just reiterate here, nothing of ours that's broken. Yeah. Well, a in an elevator you can have many things working. Or a problem or this isn't working. Why isn't this working? Yeah. And it might just be, they've got the wires around the wrong way or, know, something to do with the amount of power that's coming through or whatever, something very simple. Yeah. Mostly it's not set up correctly. Yeah. Yeah, but I get calls from people about how do I do this, how do I do that how to fix this, how to do this, how to set up this. So we sit in this like service it's it's really like a product, but it's a service industry I'd say it's a product business with a service marketing mentality. Yeah. Because service marketing, as you know, is so different to product marketing. It's a completely different ball game to the point where they have actually service marketing papers at uni to learn just about how to do that. And actually that happens to be the one paper I really enjoyed the most. And I think I got 100 % if I would like to blow my own trumpet there. And that paper, but ~ yeah, think selling a product, you still have to have that service to back it up. Yeah. And I guess that's the unique thing with the business is that like a lot of people probably interact more with us because I'm there. Yes, I'd like to think so anyways. Absolutely. I can guarantee you that's the case because we were actually at a trade show~ a month or so ago and I had ~ some of our customers were there and I had one of them come and talk to me ~ quietly. I haven't told you this actually. And ~ they said, Hey, I just want to let you know that I didn't know your dad, but he's a legend in this industry. The fact that you're still involved is really cool, but Honestly, the reason we choose to do business with you is because of Jahan That's nice Yeah. And like, Jahan is the person who, you know, he, he was always answering the phone. If he doesn't answer the phone, he'll call us back. worse on the phone, yeah, that's true. Yeah.~ if, know, if he doesn't know the answer, he'll go and find it out and let us know. Yeah. definitely backs up the geek ~ but, and the other thing that he touched on was also that we always have stock and that's been something that's been important to me is that we always, unless it's something very bespoke and unusual, we always try our very best to get out something that's ordered the very same And I think that goes a long way with people too, is just that instant like, we're always here. Yeah, I guess it's that fine line of trying to manage jobs and stock and those things and we we laugh about it sometimes that like today's detector day, but like there's seriously like I I don't know if there's like a Facebook thing out there where everybody orders the same damn thing on one day, but there's a lot of correlation like with with orders in an uncanny way. Yeah. So we have basically, have like, you know, a lot of different clients across the whole country and in the South Pacific too. And we tend to find these themes where a customer will one week. Yeah. Well, one day they'll give us a call and be like, Hey, can I order this? And then that rest of that week, everybody wants the same product. And then we sell out. I don't I don't know how that physically works, but it does. Some rap Especially universe or some kind of magnetic field. especially when it's like a thing that you you you carry a certain amount of it 'cause it never really sells a lot in that time frame and then you get hammered that week and then you're like, my god, like you have to go and get more stock and figure all of that stuff out. There's yeah, there's always some kind of funny thing coming at at some angle that is different each day. And that's hard to manage, right? Like how did you learn or did you like put processes in place for working out how much stock to order of a particular product or to have on hand? How did you figure that out? You've never done that before, before working here. I just do it? Is that an answer? Not really. That is the answer. I I guess after a while I got a feel for like how many things of each how many units of each thing were kinda needed across a few weeks and then like I just go go and have a look and Unfortunately being not being a massive business, we don't have like a big CRM that tells you like beep beep this thing's low or that thing's low, that unfortunately is like just me. You are the CRM. and then after a while I gotta I can just get a good sense of like what is needed or what can be pushed a little bit or Yeah. Yeah. So talking about that, we obviously took this over when there were no systems in place. The systems were all in my dad's head. He had a, ~ like a lever arch file with paper that he scrawled I'm sure he used to be a doctor and another life because his handwriting, he just scrawled, you know, the notes of what he'd sent to who, when I can't read any of that. I don't think he would have been able to read any of it too, to be fair. I you might be right. Like, did I send that? Like Yeah. Hold it up the other way. Like, yeah, for sure. ~ yeah. So we, we basically came across this, this whole concept of no systems whatsoever. I distinctly recall Emily, ~ having a chat with me when I, I said, Hey, I'm going to take this over. She said to me, are you going to make any changes? What, what are you going to change? And the first thing I said to her was, I'm going to put systems in place because we needed to have more than one person doing it. So we needed systems that worked across multiple people. but also we just needed systems so that we could go back later on and work out, you know, what had been done in the past, all that kind of stuff. ~ Tell me about some of the systems we've put in and like what's been helpful to you. I guess just the s the the sales system and making like a a way that it works which is I think pretty much set like in a good flow. Yeah, so sales process essentially from inquiry, which could come in via a text message, a WhatsApp message, an email, a phone call, someone popping in, walking in physically, or you bumping into them at the mall. Yeah. Yeah. All of the above. Yeah. Cause I'll get like a WhatsApp about something, a text about something, an email, a call and something else, and like they're all different jobs all trying to go through that same funnel. So I guess with me being like the central point there and being able to put it into the system makes it good, but it doesn't matter how many times you tell like a customer, if you want to do an order and make sure that it comes in, just email it through to the sales email and then all of the people that look at that email can then go, Hey, cool, we've got something we've got to send it out and not me like on leave somewhere in the world going, Hey, I've got this order I'm putting in putting in the system now or I'm emailing it to you. ~ Yeah, I guess that's probably the still a bit antiquated, but that's not like our doing that's like the customer each customer communicate on a different platform or different way. So I guess that goes back to the whole sales thing and being personable. Yeah. There is one customer that will only call me and place an order. Mm-hmm. He won't do it any other way. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And we don't say no to that because you're not going to. Obviously everything you've just talked about means that it makes life a little bit tricky when it's maybe outside of working hours or it's you're on leave or you're at an event or with a supplier or on site somewhere or you know that that's hard. But we say yes. I guess it's just my life. I d just just the way it is at the moment. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny you say that 'cause I was messaging a customer last night trying to fix an issue and I it was like six or six thirty or something. I I was like, Why aren't you at home, dude? Like what are you doing? The building must have been shut down and he was Yeah. working on a different lift controller, trying to get a screen working on a new install and asking me questions and he's like, it's late, you probably want to message me tomorrow. I'm like, No, I wanna message you now so that I don't have to do it tomorrow. There'll be another question like this tomorrow, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. so And that's just part of the job, I guess, in this instance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so But that is interesting because as we've gone over the last eight years, we've, have realised that you actually do need a holiday on occasion. You do need time off Good. and, sometimes you're sick and you're not at the office. I have been known to answer the phone when I'm sick and people are like, You sound rubbish. I'm like, I don't feel good and they're like, I just want to put an order through. I was like, You're like, send it to sales I don't know, write it on my phone and then I'm sending it to sales. So yeah, Yeah. ~ so we've had, we've tried to overcome those issues because people just love. Unfortunately, because you're really personable, people love talking to you. They love having that conversation,~ which does create some issues. that's something we've certainly learned.~ So some of the ways we've dealt with that is bringing in ~ staff as well. So that it was just you and I to start with. And I found myself going another direction, needing to be more involved in the marketing business and various other bits and pieces, photography and video as well. And so we've had to bring on other people to help you. But it's a really interesting interesting challenge we've had there because this business isn't ~ doesn't play by like certain hours, like you've touched on it a bit, but also the orders aren't exactly the same every day. We might have a day with very few orders and then we might have a day that you are so flat out, you need two or three people to help you. That's that's that's not manageable, like with how big we are, so Exactly. It's been a real challenge and I'm sure other small business owners listening to this would be interested to see how we deal with that in terms of managing staff, managing the hours that they work. sometimes we're paying people to do nothing. Sometimes we're paying them to be run ragged and not get a lunch break. I mean, how have we managed that? I guess with us we just recognise like when you're busy or real busy then like there's gonna be other days that you're not so busy. So like just making the time to be quite chill and relaxed and you know, if there's no orders and it's past courier time then sometimes it's good just to go home. Yeah. And we're really lucky that we've had staff who have understood. I actually hate using the word staff because they don't feel like staff They like family. ~ but actually having people are really amazing people who have understood that and are quite happy to work in that way. And I, I don't know if many people like that exist actually, or maybe they do. We've been very lucky to find them, but I mean, my advice to other business owners would be just find the like, find your people. You know, like, and be quite clear on what the culture is when you're employing somebody and don't, ~ you know, beat around the bush around the way you explain that. If you've got something that's a quirk of the way that the operations work for you, just be upfront about that when you're first talking to them and say, Hey, this is the way we do things. Might be a bit different to what you've done before. I guess it's always a challenge with hiring staff and I guess it's more of a interview thing of trying to get a gauge on how that person is and then going from there.~ I guess with Billie with her adventures overseas to be coming at the end of the year, like we'll then have this hurdle again, but Yeah. So yeah, we have Billie who has worked across both businesses. She was employed primarily to work at Cirrus International. But then we discovered she's a pretty amazing photographer. So I stole her for a few bits and pieces here and there.~ yeah, we're losing her unfortunately to the UK at the end of the year.~ And so we're trying to work out what we're gonna do with that space and how we fill it Yeah. I guess there's always those little business challenges of what you do when. but yeah, we've got Steph there and probably looking at like her role and what things she wanted to steal off Billie for what she wants to do and then go from there to see like how big a hole is left over. Exactly. And I'm, I'm a real fan of actually having a conversation with your semi-regularly about what they do in their job and actually saying, are there any parts of your job you don't actually enjoy? And okay, we all have to do parts of our jobs we don't enjoy. I certainly have many of those.~ and I'm sure you do too, but I want people to actually come to work and 90 % of the time really enjoy what they do because we spend so much time at work. in our lives, I think you should enjoy it as much as you can.~ So yeah, I'm real advocate for ~ managers or owners to actually speak to their staff and say, Hey, is there anything you don't like? Because it might very well be that someone else in your office would actually really enjoy doing that. So for example, I know some people love spreadsheets. Crazy. I know some people hate them. I love spreadsheets. ~ Some people hate them and it's finding that balance of, maybe your skill set is better served in a different place and it's just having those conversations, right? And working that out. Yeah, I guess it's just like the the bits that are uniquely you're good at, how do you utilise them more compared to something that if it's in a process can anybody pick it up and it's how do you differentiate those things to divide up people's time and make the most out of everything? Yeah. And it may be that what you employed them for originally isn't actually where they land, which is okay because changing the way that they work or discovering and watching what they're doing and finding these little niche areas that they're really good at or they really enjoy, they're really efficient at as well, it put their time into that. I guess you find people with more efficiencies over certain jobs as well. So being Definitely. able to take advantage of different staff over different things that people find hard or easy. It's probably beneficial, Yeah. yeah. Do you enjoy the fact that your job is quite varied in terms of customer service, sales, dealing with suppliers, having to think strategically about stock, about new products, the direction we're going? You have a lot of different skill sets you're drawing on. yeah, I guess I was thinking when you were talking a bit before, like could you describe your job to a person? And I don't think I could because I've just got so much stuff that I do that it doesn't Like how how long do you wanna talk? talk for about stuff and then there's still other stuff that I do that I don't even remember that I do that just happens. Yeah. Yeah. So I just like the challenge of like being busy I guess and to a point like I'm too busy but then that's okay 'cause then you're not bored. Yeah, for sure. The other challenge that has come across going back to the staff as well is that you've ended up in a position where you're managing people. How has that been for you? I remember when I, I'm going to stop you before you answer. I remember when I first met you, I asked you a question and said, would you ever want to be a manager? And you said, no, that's not for me. And I know people change over time. So do you think you changed? I wouldn't say I'm a manager, I'd say I'm more of a leader and probably the managerial side just kind of comes through from that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, 'cause I I I don't know what I do, but I always get picked to like lead something and like it's like the last I wanna do in the world but But you do a good job at it and your hobbies and other things too. Specifically, yeah, every single team I join. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. the sports you play. So yeah, it's it's I don't know. That that's just something that follows me, I I guess, and I don't like seek it out. So I guess it's like one of those destiny things of like, okay, yeah, let's I had a meeting this morning. I caught up with someone, an old colleague, and I said to them, I don't think I was born to be a leader and or a manager. And then I went on to explain to them what I do and the team I have and all the different bits and pieces. And he stopped me and he says, sounds to me like you were born to be a leader. And that was probably one of the nicest compliments I've ever had. I guess in a way like you were always learning those things from your dad. Yeah. And so like Subconsciously? Yeah, I was looking for the word subconsciously, like over all of those conversations at home while he was talking to customers and stuff, you kind of learnt all of those well just hearing Osmosis. and listening and figuring out like how the way he dealt with customers and people and problems and I I guess like that's a good it was a good advantage for you, even though you probably didn't know it at the time. Right. And Yeah, thank you. then then that osmosis of experience and information and interaction kind of already gave you a heads up and going down that path was probably easy and not challenging'cause of those things that you learnt. Yeah. So Unintentionally. how did you, what did you, where did you learn it from? I don't know. Yeah, I really don't know. Like I would still say I'm reluctantly a leader, but then people say I'm good at it. So I I yeah. I guess for me it's just like I just do the best with what I can and then apparently that's enough for most people. So yeah. I mean, ~ during university you were working a retail job. you think you picked up from? Well, that's definitely like the customer interaction and that I find like that easy from being in retail 'cause retail is like a I guess a vicious game of cat and mouse And it was interesting because like when you when you go back to this whole like service thing and how your dad was, I I think in retail that's how I was and that's why it was good because I was kind of different from the other people out there like chasing numbers or doing that thing. And so maybe I just always was that way and Sounds to me like you were born a leader too. Yes so I guess so, maybe. Yeah. Maybe we have that in common. Yeah, so I I guess not not chasing for it, but like just happened. Being real and authentic and just human. Just literally being a normal person with common sense. Or a geek. 'Cause I'm like I A customer service geek wonder like the correlation between like the logic brain and leadership and whether there's a strong correlation between the two. That's for one people at home to give you some feedback, Yeah. but I don't know, maybe that helps.~ I couldn't get I couldn't give you an answer. Like doing those team diagrams and The Enneagram and the disc profiling and stuff. But I get you and I are opposite of that. However, it's not to say there aren't leaders on all of the scales of those. They just have But different styles of leadership. every time it came through that thing it said leadership and I was like, What are you talking about? Like Yeah, that's an interesting one. Yeah, so I guess there's lots of interesting probably it's just the traits looks at and those are the traits that I have. So maybe just that way. Do you think that there's a connection between your logical side of your brain and your leadership style, maybe? I guess people would probably say that I'm I'm either like really quick on something and dealing with it that second or passing it off to somebody and saying, like, here you go, you can figure that out, like you're capable.~ I guess I can make a decision about like whether a person could be able to do that task and needs me and can I go into this other thing? I guess leadership is like deciding like where your time's best spent. Yes. And which which direction to do something and then making a determination on the fly as to like what to do, when to do it, how to do it. That's probably one of the things that small business people probably find hard is like their time and where they spend I guess. 100%. ~ my gosh, yes. And so maybe recognising like this person's good at that thing, so just you know, here you go. come back and ask me some questions if you can't figure it out, even though you probably know that they can't figure it out, but giving them a chance to do it so that hopefully later they'll get it the second or third time. And so you're believing in them. You're giving them a chance to give it a go, to use the initiative to grow, to feel ownership of, what they're going to do. And that actually, I think also builds confidence in staff as well. Right. Not only confidence, but like if it's a task that maybe doesn't need all of your attention or you've got something else to deal with and you're like, yo, that person could probably come up for it with a good answer for this thing and deal with it in a different way that will be acceptable for you 'cause you've made the decision that that person's capable, then you know, that's one less little decision you have to make that they can deal with and they can grow. So So prioritizing tasks of a day,~ believing in a person to make the right choice for that task that you're like, I don't mind which way it goes, but I don't really need to make a decision'cause I believe you can. And there's probably a lot of people out there with staff that just ask you for constant like, what should I do here? What should I do there? so I guess throwing them in the water a little bit and seeing if they can swim. Yeah. Yeah, and the deep end, right? And I guess when you're small, like you've got all of these tasks and all of these decisions to make, but probably just a reminder that if you have a staff member there that's capable, like you can Let go. That's Like yeah. Like scary. Like I had to learn that. I had to learn how to do that. And I'm not a micromanager. never wanted to be. But You still wanna make the decisions on everything? I am a control freak to some degree. Some may say a larger degree than others.~ Yeah, and it's finding that balance of like, for me, I think actually when I had to push myself to be like that as a leader, I actually was just so busy. I didn't have time anymore. So I didn't have a choice. I had to hand it over to people and go, go do your thing. Yeah. I that's interesting, but but like you can't make a decision about everything all the time if you're a hundred percent busy. So Yeah. So I guess You're so right. it's maybe just how you interact with your staff and making sure that you know, can they do it or not, or is this something that they're gonna learn or not? Mm-hmm. And so just yeah. It's a it's an interesting thing to be free, but my logical side of the brain goes, Okay, that person's capable of doing it, let's just see how that turns out Yeah. And maybe understanding people's ~ learning styles as well. like some people would prefer to watch you do something first and then they can go and do it. Some people actually just want to get stuck in and get it done. So actually recognising that and the people that you're working with and being okay, this person works best in this situation. I'll do it that way for them. And then realising you have to adapt your style, depending on the person you're speaking to. has it been something that you have had to recognise in people? I think I've probably had to do that more so even with customers as well as we talked about briefly the way that people communicate with you. So all the different ways that people are having to recognise that and adjust the way that you are acting in your job to work with the person you're working with. Yeah, feel like that's like a whole kind of masquerade of hats and how you interact with people, but probably all in a similar way, just all in a different tone or different style. What's interesting is that the people you're dealing with don't realise that the ones that are changing. Like we're having to change the way we work to suit them rather than the other way around, but they don't even know we're doing it. But I think you and I are quite quick at reading the room and figuring out from the people like, what do they need from us to get the most efficient, effective answer or solution? And then we adjust the way we work to suit that. I guess that's just customer service. Yeah. Because that's at the end of the day like each different person's doing their job about fixing something here and there and we're here to solve their problem and we've learnt the best way to extract that information and solve their problem and service them as a customer with all of their needs and products and what they to get done. Yeah. So that they're happy. And it's just learning like how each person deals with their own day And then go from there. Like I've got one customer that just calls me to have a yarn, yeah. ask and then ask me a question and then talks about going to have a Cup of coffee and a slice and then kind of goes about his day. Yeah. Yeah. And if I don't answer the phone from he goes, What's happening? What are you doing? Do you not love me anymore? I know exactly who you're talking about. Yeah, sh shout out to Ian. Yeah, so I guess it's just like those intricacies of of I guess I don't change who I am. It's just like you I ~ you you understand like where the conversation is going before they get there, so you can kind of direct them more efficiently into what they need and what they want to then get on with your day as well. Okay, you touched on something really interesting there. So you said you don't change who you are to make that work, but you do change the way that you communicate with them to suit them. How do you differentiate those two things? Because I would say that we're quite good at like flicking a switch and instantly being like, this person needs this for me. But that's not actually changing your personality and who you are. I guess it's just understanding the flow of their intentions about what they want as their customer service like workflow So like I guess software is interesting 'cause it teaches you a whole bunch of like how things work and different parts that things get done and like I just see that interaction as like a little workflow of like how all of these conversations work to get to The goal of like their problem. Are you visualising that in your head as like almost like a flow chart? yeah, it's it I would say it's like a flowchart of of things and So interesting. Yeah, so I guess like just understanding a person and how they interact can then help you like direct that conversation in a specific way that you still have that chat and still laugh about something and then still talk about like what they did in the weekend and Like still remembering all of those facts about the person, but then getting to the root cause of why they called me. Yeah, and I know for you, you're pretty good at remembering those things. You have a pretty good memory in that way. I try to. Yeah, but for others who may be listening and they struggle with that, because I think that's a great piece of advice is actually remembering those personal things. How do they have their coffee? So if you're taking them out for a coffee, like having it there ordered ready, like, you know, this person has a caramel flat white, you know, whatever it may be. ~ like, you know, remembering like the, well, their kids sport is, or, you know, all that, favorite sports team they, they support. ~ like I think for people who struggle to remember that kind of stuff is don't be afraid to write it down and actually have some kind of Even if you don't have a CRM, even if you don't have a piece of software, you can do it and have a notebook. That's okay. Have a spreadsheet, whatever it is that you need to have that attention to detail. for each person that you're dealing with. Yeah, that that's an interesting point. I don't know how I do that, but it just happens. But then I guess on the other hand I can meet somebody for the first time, forget their name and that can't stick forever. But then I'll get like a tech calling me from a company and I can remember them. I I don't know how it works. It's just like a work thing. Yeah, so for the stuff you can't remember so well, what's your system? What do you do? I'm just really bad at remembering names when I first meet people.~ Yeah. but like the cool thing, I don't like physically meet people a lot. Mm-hmm. And so like once somebody calls me I can save their name and then like I write like, you know, where they are, what company they are, their name. So I've got like when they call me all of that information comes up yeah straight away. Yeah, to using technology to help you. so I guess that's the way I without having to remember face it is a lot easier. And then once you always have a chat, I always remembered those things. the conversation actually helps you remember. you actually ask those personal questions, that'll help you recall, I remember that was Jared who really loves cricket and like, you know, he took his son in the weekend. Yeah, I guess being a small business, like my biggest advice to be when your customer calls you, like I always say, like, how are you going? What are you up to? What are doing? We'll have a chit chat about something. And then I'll go, Okay, cool, like, have you got a problem, like, what's up, what's going on? And then we'll get onto like the work stuff. So I guess if you start off with that whole personable knowing and getting to know them more. Like getting to know a person by asking them a question when you talk to them like makes them feel valued and then like that conversation then will help you later on. 100 percent. So it's like that personable approach to how do you get closer to your customer as a small business person, like those little things probably are a good hint. Yes. Good help. naturally like a good thing I'd do that automatically so didn't have to learn But like probably a good tip to pass on for people out there. And if you're nervous about doing that, maybe just have like a list of like a couple of questions that you can kind of rotate because although you know you asked the last person that question, the person you're talking to doesn't know that you've already had that same conversation with the person you spoke to at 10 o'clock this morning and now it's two in the afternoon. They don't know that you asked all the same stuff. That's okay. People love talking about themselves. It's more yeah, people like you just get on a on on a tangent of something that they're doing, they'll talk about that and so you'll learn a little bit and then you know, you can talk to them a couple of days later and say, how was like volleyball or whatever, you know? Like you can still talk about the same subject, but if you remember that they were doing that that night, like two days later, they're gonna be more impressed with you than for remembering rather than asking them a question. So I guess it's just How do you associate those questions and remember them? Whether you write them down or have a good memory and can just find what works for you. Yeah, find what works and go from there. Yeah. I guess the good thing with me is like I don't know how many people I talk to or how many people call me. Like if you have a smaller client list that might be easier. Jahan, today has been so insightful to understand how you do what you do and where you've come from. Thank you so much for your time. hopefully like passed on some knowledge or some good insights to people to learn from, I guess, as as being a un unsuspecting leader. And then yeah. It it's always good to have a chat and learn different stuff and share. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for being on the show and until next time. Thank you. Thanks so much for joining the Visual Marketing Podcast, brought to you by CI Marketing. I'm your host Liz, and I can't wait to share more episodes with you.